Phelpsian Calvinism

saizai

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In the Infidel Guy's interview with one of the Phelps whelps, it came out that they're actually Calvinists. They don't believe that fags are going to change, they're totally down with the idea that homosexuality is genetic, etc. They simply say "well god told us to preach the word and tell them they're doing things wrong, so that's what we're doing".

I don't think IG followed up on that, which is unfortunate 'cause I found it very interesting for understanding what they're doing.

The moment you really realize that they're Calvinists - they don't believe that their preaching will change things, just that they're playing a role and are lucky enough to be on the good people side - it finally makes sense. Because what doesn't make sense at first light in what they're doing and the way they do it is that it's clearly not very conversion-friendly, i.e., it isn't actually something that is crafted in such a way as to change someone's mind. But if it was never meant to then that's not a problem, because so long as they're fulfilling their role in the play they're doing what God wants 'em to do and that's it.
 
saizai said:
In the Infidel Guy's interview with one of the Phelps whelps, it came out that they're actually Calvinists. They don't believe that fags are going to change, they're totally down with the idea that homosexuality is genetic, etc. They simply say "well god told us to preach the word and tell them they're doing things wrong, so that's what we're doing".

I don't think IG followed up on that, which is unfortunate 'cause I found it very interesting for understanding what they're doing.

The moment you really realize that they're Calvinists - they don't believe that their preaching will change things, just that they're playing a role and are lucky enough to be on the good people side - it finally makes sense. Because what doesn't make sense at first light in what they're doing and the way they do it is that it's clearly not very conversion-friendly, i.e., it isn't actually something that is crafted in such a way as to change someone's mind. But if it was never meant to then that's not a problem, because so long as they're fulfilling their role in the play they're doing what God wants 'em to do and that's it.
Click to expand...

There is an alternative model circulating in Skeptical circles right now that they are actually racketeering, and basically insincerely role-playing for a living.

Specifically, the alleged racket works like this:

1. establish a contrary - but legally protected - viewpoint
2. display this viewpoint in a legal but emotionally-charged manner
3. if the authorities or private citizens intefere... sue, sue, sue, and win
4. deposit damages into bank account
5. repeat

This would explain why they seem to operate in zones where they push buttons instead of actually effect change. Their claims are not limited to 'god hates fags'. They have expanded their operations to: 'god hates America,' for example, which expands their target base to pretty much everybody else in the country.

My personal opinion is that the Phelps clan is probably not religious at all. Just one more batch of crooks.
 
Well, I guess that puts the Phelps klan in a slightly more understandable light. (I use the word understandable in the loosest context that is possible.)

I for one find the idea of predestination to be terribly depressing. What's the point of living if there's no choice, if nothing you do truly matters? To cast "destiny" in a different light, I don't believe that even strong romantic connections, such as that between my wife and myself were "made to be". We happen to get along great, but as with life in general, it still takes a lot of work, patience, and understanding. I think it's much more romantic that she and I choose each other over everyone else in the world, instead of blindly riding the rails of destiny.

Getting back to Phelps...well...what else can I say that hasn't been said already? At the risk of sounding as hateful as the ones I despise in this case, go die in a fire, Phelps.
 
I'm trying to figure out how people who believe in predestination have any initiative at all... theoretically you should just be able to sit back and enjoy the ride, expending no effort whatsoever... the laws of physics and God will hurl you through life doing whatever it is you are supposed to be doing.
 
Personally I have always thought that Phelps's only real goal is to get people to hate him.


He really seems to get off on that.
 
saizai said:
The moment you really realize that they're Calvinists - they don't believe that their preaching will change things, just that they're playing a role and are lucky enough to be on the good people side - it finally makes sense. Because what doesn't make sense at first light in what they're doing and the way they do it is that it's clearly not very conversion-friendly, i.e., it isn't actually something that is crafted in such a way as to change someone's mind. But if it was never meant to then that's not a problem, because so long as they're fulfilling their role in the play they're doing what God wants 'em to do and that's it.
Click to expand...
[swiki]Fred Phelps[/swiki] : We don't strive to change your hearts or minds. For God alone controls the hearts of man. Even if we wanted to, we couldn't make you believe the truth. In fact, the scriptures are full of verses telling us you will not believe our report. God has reserved to himself only a remnant.
 
Dr Adequate said:
[swiki]Fred Phelps[/swiki] : We don't strive to change your hearts or minds. For God alone controls the hearts of man. Even if we wanted to, we couldn't make you believe the truth. In fact, the scriptures are full of verses telling us you will not believe our report. God has reserved to himself only a remnant.
Click to expand...

So the only motivation for Phelps and his toadies to harass people is outright hate plus a smug self satisfaction. They're like the kids on the playground mercilessly teasing the kid who's parents can't afford to buy him the "cool" clothes.
 
saizai said:
In the Infidel Guy's interview with one of the Phelps whelps, it came out that they're actually Calvinists. They don't believe that fags are going to change, they're totally down with the idea that homosexuality is genetic, etc. They simply say "well god told us to preach the word and tell them they're doing things wrong, so that's what we're doing".

I don't think IG followed up on that, which is unfortunate 'cause I found it very interesting for understanding what they're doing.

The moment you really realize that they're Calvinists - they don't believe that their preaching will change things, just that they're playing a role and are lucky enough to be on the good people side - it finally makes sense. Because what doesn't make sense at first light in what they're doing and the way they do it is that it's clearly not very conversion-friendly, i.e., it isn't actually something that is crafted in such a way as to change someone's mind. But if it was never meant to then that's not a problem, because so long as they're fulfilling their role in the play they're doing what God wants 'em to do and that's it.
Click to expand...

As a Calvinist, i must say your views of Calvinism are incorrect.
 
The point Calvinism makes is not that men do not have wills, or that they have no volition. Rather, Calvinism points out that if man is born fallen and in the context of original sin, then he will not choose God. God must choose him and change him into someone capable of believing in him. Calvinism is not Hard Determinism, in fact, Puritan Calvinists contributed greatly to the philosophical development of Soft Determinism. Furthermore, even though Calvinism believes God must act in a person to save them, this does not mean that God doesn't use means to do this. Therefore, preaching to people will save no one in and of itself, but God uses preaching as a means to bring people to salvation. I have no idea who the phelps people are and this post should not be viewed as an endorsement of their work, nor as an argument for the Calvinistic viewpoint, it is merely an explanation.
 
Ohhhh, Westboro Baptist Church. Yeah, total loons, and it's one of those churches where 99% of the congregation are related by blood.
 
RationalReverend said:
The point Calvinism makes is not that men do not have wills, or that they have no volition. Rather, Calvinism points out that if man is born fallen and in the context of original sin, then he will not choose God. God must choose him and change him into someone capable of believing in him. Calvinism is not Hard Determinism, in fact, Puritan Calvinists contributed greatly to the philosophical development of Soft Determinism. Furthermore, even though Calvinism believes God must act in a person to save them, this does not mean that God doesn't use means to do this. Therefore, preaching to people will save no one in and of itself, but God uses preaching as a means to bring people to salvation. I have no idea who the phelps people are and this post should not be viewed as an endorsement of their work, nor as an argument for the Calvinistic viewpoint, it is merely an explanation.
Click to expand...

Thanks! You spared me making a post about it.
Not that I'm a Calvinist, but the Doctrine of Predestination is much more subtle than the popular version of it.

Have you ever read Jonathan Edwards on the subject? His philosophical underpinnings for the doctrine bear some resemblance to Mahayana Buddhist teachings on will and the nature of reality.
 
Hyparxis said:
Thanks! You spared me making a post about it.
Not that I'm a Calvinist, but the Doctrine of Predestination is much more subtle than the popular version of it.

Have you ever read Jonathan Edwards on the subject? His philosophical underpinnings for the doctrine bear some resemblance to Mahayana Buddhist teachings on will and the nature of reality.
Click to expand...

Yes I have, he was on of the Puritan writers I was referring to. He is famous for being a preacher and so I was shocked to hear about his contribution to Soft determinism in a secular philosophy class.
 
Foster Zygote said:
Satan told me over lunch that Phelps gives him the creeps.
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If I were satan, I think Phelps would weird me out a little, too.

"The whole tarnishing the image of christianity is great, and all, but...jeez, man, could ya be a little less crazy?"
 
I see them more like some hillbilly throwbacks out of Deliverance.

Also, they remind me of the alleged tales of Sawney Beane.
 
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blutoski said:
There is an alternative model circulating in Skeptical circles right now that they are actually racketeering, and basically insincerely role-playing for a living.

Specifically, the alleged racket works like this:

1. establish a contrary - but legally protected - viewpoint
2. display this viewpoint in a legal but emotionally-charged manner
3. if the authorities or private citizens intefere... sue, sue, sue, and win
4. deposit damages into bank account
5. repeat

This would explain why they seem to operate in zones where they push buttons instead of actually effect change. Their claims are not limited to 'god hates fags'. They have expanded their operations to: 'god hates America,' for example, which expands their target base to pretty much everybody else in the country.

My personal opinion is that the Phelps clan is probably not religious at all. Just one more batch of crooks.
Click to expand...

Have they actually launched any damage suits? Wikipedia didn't reference any, and the only suits it mentioned that were started by or on behalf the Phelpses or Westboro Baptist were ones started by the ACLU to try to overturn the picketing bans.

Tanstaafl said:
Personally I have always thought that Phelps's only real goal is to get people to hate him.


He really seems to get off on that.
Click to expand...


According to the Wikipedia article, this is the view of one of his sons (now estranged, obviously). Seems the most likely explanation to me.
 
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