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Perpetual motion machine examination rules, please.

Ok. So the first question would be, "Why is the perpetual motion machine considered quasi-paranormal?"
 
Because it violates the first law of thermodynamics. Remember Lavoisier: "Rien ne se perds, rien ne se crée: tout se transforme" (Nothing is lost, nothing is created, all is transformed)
 
Note also that most descriptions of telepathy and levitation would also constitute a perpetual motion machine (though I'm waiting for the day a clever applicant decides to add that his ability draws a lot of power out of him, and thus doesn't actually violate any laws of thermodynamics ;))
 
Hello I am here., I suggest you check out the application of Mr. Ron Nucci and read carefully what has happened:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29206

Also, if your time allows it, give Mr. Kirk Gustom a try:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27304



Get some coffee and read these application threads front to back, left to right back and forth and back again. Unfortunately, both threads possess quite a volume.

You'll get rewarded though because they both show quite nicely:

1. How both applicants came in with supposably high hopes and

2. How their applications - along with their alleged devices - disintegrated in broad daylight.



As Mr. Konrad Brean put it in "Wag The Dog":

"They didn't think it through."
 
I am here -

Do you have a perpetual motion machine you would like to submit for testing under protocol?

Just trying to ascertain the purpose of the question.
 
hellaeon said:
I would say, understand basic physics and thermodynamics.

My two cents
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Well I would readily accept that if this were in the science forum. It's in the Challenge forum, therefore I am trying to understand why.
 
I am here. said:
Ok. So the first question would be, "Why is the perpetual motion machine considered quasi-paranormal?"
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I'd say PM machines fall more under the category of pseudoscientific rather than paranormal... or quasi-paranormal. Still perfectly challenge-worthy nonetheless.

I'm currently working out the kinks in my own PM machine design:

image.php


My prototype has been running for three straight weeks now. The million bucks is as good as mine.
 
I have read the FAQ, which is the reason that I was asking in the first place. In the unofficial FAQ which is somewhere in this forum I noticed that it said something to the effect of, "perpetual motion machines have been found to be borderline paranormal" or something like that in the section where it describes what's considered paranormal for the purposes of the challenge (listed are things like telepathy, TK, dowsing, etc.). However, I was confused because right before it mentions that PMDs (perpetual motion drives) are considered only quasi-paranormal, it refers to things that violate Newton's laws as completely paranormal. So, what is the difference? One would think that any PMD necessarily breaks Newton's laws.

Also, yup I sure do have something to submit for testing. However, I'm facing a pretty vicious bill to build this thing and the bill rises significantly as the machine has to be adapted to operate in different environments. To this end, I need to get an idea of what kind of hurdles the examiners are going to throw at me. That is the purpose of this thread, the answer to these two questions.
 
I am here. said:
I have read the FAQ, which is the reason that I was asking in the first place. In the unofficial FAQ which is somewhere in this forum I noticed that it said something to the effect of, "perpetual motion machines have been found to be borderline paranormal" or something like that in the section where it describes what's considered paranormal for the purposes of the challenge (listed are things like telepathy, TK, dowsing, etc.). However, I was confused because right before it mentions that PMDs (perpetual motion drives) are considered only quasi-paranormal, it refers to things that violate Newton's laws as completely paranormal. So, what is the difference? One would think that any PMD necessarily breaks Newton's laws.

Also, yup I sure do have something to submit for testing. However, I'm facing a pretty vicious bill to build this thing and the bill rises significantly as the machine has to be adapted to operate in different environments. To this end, I need to get an idea of what kind of hurdles the examiners are going to throw at me. That is the purpose of this thread, the answer to these two questions.
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The FAQ and challenge rules should answer all questions. If you have further questions you may email Kramer.

Color me not surprised a new poster in this forum asking about challenge rules and FAQ has something they want to apply with, and hasn't read through the FAQ fully, or has a nitpick.

Look paranormal or quasi paranormal, it's eligible for the prize.

Also, you should be aware that we on this forum do not represent the JREF in any respect, nor do we evaluate applications. That is for Kramer. Email him and ask him and questions you have.

In short: Here's where you hear what we tell everyone else that posts the way you did...

...Show us. Apply. Skip the small talk and apply.
 
Of course, the easiest way to do this might be to just describe exactly what it is that I've got here. So, essentially what it is is a big (6'X6'X2' standing up) box that has a small hole in its side from which a shaft protrudes to which a fan is attached. I know, a little garbled. But its a box with a fan sticking out of it and the fan turns. And... it requires no fuel... obviously. So, does that count? Are the examiners going to give me a hard time about the argument that perpetual motion machines are going to stop "eventually"... like when the sun burns this planet to a crisp. And yes, mine will stop, like a car engine, when it breaks.
 
Well, I'm no expert in the area of challenge rules and such but it seems to me that you should go ahead and build it, regardless of the rules. Why?

If you're convinced that it works your expenses should be easily covered by the million bucks you're going to win. Even if you don't win, a PM machine, if it works, is going to make you rich beyond anyone's wildest imagination.

So, are you convinced your device will work?

If yes: Build it regardless of expense.

If no: Why do you want to attempt the challenge, just to try it out?
 
I am here. said:
Of course, the easiest way to do this might be to just describe exactly what it is that I've got here. So, essentially what it is is a big (6'X6'X2' standing up) box that has a small hole in its side from which a shaft protrudes to which a fan is attached. I know, a little garbled. But its a box with a fan sticking out of it and the fan turns. And... it requires no fuel... obviously. So, does that count? Are the examiners going to give me a hard time about the argument that perpetual motion machines are going to stop "eventually"... like when the sun burns this planet to a crisp. And yes, mine will stop, like a car engine, when it breaks.
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I'm calling troll.

Okay, I'll resist the curmudgeon in me and ask:

What drives the perpetual motion machine? Chi? Karma? Vibes? "Quantum vibrations"?
 
I'm not getting any reactions that I didn't expect here. I'm certainly not trying to be rude, just trying to say that I have already been challenged. I don't need to be challenged by you also. However, if that's your preference then I'll gladly endure it to get the information that I need. These are important questions to me.
 
Anywho. I'm not going to say any more about what makes it work than that the energy comes from natural sources.
 
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