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Paul was a gnostic

lifegazer

Philosopher
Joined
Oct 9, 2003
Messages
5,047
As the title says, Paul was a gnostic. This is significant because most modern christians aren't. In fact, modern christians are biblical literalists who considered gnostics to be heretics... and in the earlier centuries after the advent of Christianity, heretics usually ended up biting the dust.

There is also ample evidence to suggest that 6 of the 13 letters attributed to Paul, were forgeries. Couple of links here, but you can find many with a search:
paul's forged letters http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Pauline_epistles
and http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/paul.html

The second link is particularly interesting. Scroll half-way down to the large-type. The authors of 'The Jesus Mysteries' (a very interesting read in itself), say that it was misleading to call Paul a gnostic at that time because literalists didn't really exist until long after the 1st century. Maybe so, but there can be no doubting that his 'mystical' beliefs were far-flung from the beliefs later to be held by the literalists.

I pointed-out the forgeries since I think their content has a more literalist style. Clearly, added by literalists to bolster the literalist point-of-view whilst also diluting Paul's more-spiritual message in his other letters.

There are more links here supporting the claim that Paul was a gnostic:
http://www.theosophical.ca/PaulOpponent.htm paul the gnostic
http://members.iinet.net.au/~quentinj/Christianity/Paul-Gnostic.html
http://gnostics.tribe.net/thread/a1d9513d-e484-422f-967a-de9830c8cb89

Of course, there are alsorts of ramifications here to such a disclosure, not least of which is that literalists have completely corrupted the fundamental message given by Jesus (not to mention Paul), so that the Roman Catholic church (and related churches) is unveiled as a total sham.
 
I love gnostics. Boil them lightly and serve them with thick sauces, e.g., marinara.
 
Perhaps I should have mentioned also that all those atheists out there who specifically detest Christianity, have vented their anger in the wrong direction.
In future, please address true Christianity.
 
Perhaps I should have mentioned also that all those atheists out there who specifically detest Christianity, have vented their anger in the wrong direction.
In future, please address true Christianity.

Well I can't speak for those who "detest" Christianity but why should atheists address a form of religion that is virtually dead in place of a religion that has a powerful influence on the modern world? The legitimacy of modern Christianity in relation to ancient writings has little to do with its current relevance to our world.

Steven

Edited for anal retentive spelling issue.
 
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Well I can't speak for those who "detest" Christianity but why should atheists address a form of religion that is virtually dead in place of a religion that has a powerful influence on the modern world? The legitimacy of modern Christianity in relation to ancient writings has little to due with its current relevance to our world.

Steven
It's resurrected... so to speak.

Since various documents came to light in the 20th century, there has been growing interest in gnosticism.

Regardless, in answer to your question, I suspect that most of the atheists on this forum came to be atheists due to frustrated attitudes developed through interaction/participation with christian literalism. Well that doesn't suffice as a reason to be an atheist... and it certainly doesn't suffice as a reason to abhor 'christianity' when this new light is shed upon that religion.
 
I suspect that most of the atheists on this forum came to be atheists due to frustrated attitudes developed through interaction/participation with christian literalism.
I don't believe that is true. Further I think such a claim is insulting to the many who didn't blindly follow some prepackaged faith or simply believe in a spirit in the sky and instead committed themselves to find the truth, whatever that truth was.

I didn't become an atheist out of frustration. On the contrary it was a very difficult thing for me to do.

Understanding the history of theology and beliefs in general I can't say that gnosticism holds any significant importance or stands out in any way from any other belief.
 
It's resurrected... so to speak.

Since various documents came to light in the 20th century, there has been growing interest in gnosticism.

Regardless, in answer to your question, I suspect that most of the atheists on this forum came to be atheists due to frustrated attitudes developed through interaction/participation with christian literalism. Well that doesn't suffice as a reason to be an atheist... and it certainly doesn't suffice as a reason to abhor 'christianity' when this new light is shed upon that religion.

How is that an answer to my question? how does Gnosticism vs. modern literalism invalidate atheism? From an atheist viewpoint the main difference is that one advocates two gods (a belief at odds with your stated beliefs) while the other claims only one God, in three parts (some assembly required).

I see you like the straw man of the atheist as frustrated and angry. Your suspicion about why most of the atheists on this forum came to be atheists may be erroneous. Do you have any data? Perhaps you could interview us? Your statement regarding the sufficiency of our atheist view does nothing but reinforce your own preconceived notions about us.

Steven
 
I find it hard to care about the politico/religious affiliations of a 1st century tent maker turned hit man turned born again evangelist. We have enough fatheads like that in the here and now.
 
I don't believe that is true. Further I think such a claim is insulting to the many who didn't blindly follow some prepackaged faith or simply believe in a spirit in the sky and instead committed themselves to find the truth, whatever that truth was.
Most kids are dragged to church long before they have matured to consider the merits of such matters. It's bred into them - brainwashing.
Many of these kids become disenchanted with the whole thing and rebel.
I've read so many stories on this forum about such experiences.
So they rebel against 'christianity', but - as I've been trying to explain - it's a fake form of christianity, with a fake message.
Understanding the history of theology and beliefs in general I can't say that gnosticism holds any significant importance or stands out in any way from any other belief.
You see no significant distinction between the views of a gnostic and the views of a literalist?!
 
Don't mock what you don't understand. Makes you look like a retard.

That's quite possibly the most juvenile, asinine thing I've seen you write.

And may I point out that you seem to make it your business to mock things that you clearly don't understand.

Steven
 
Most kids are dragged to church long before they have matured to consider the merits of such matters. It's bred into them - brainwashing.

Many of these kids become disenchanted with the whole thing and rebel.
I believe there is some truth to that but it is insulting to suggest that this is the only reason that these folks are atheist. Not all who rebel become atheist. My brother and sister both rebelled and they still believe in god they simply don't go to church. Both find it astonishing that I, a missionary and stalwart believer, would be atheist.

So they rebel against 'christianity', but - as I've been trying to explain - it's a fake form of ChristianityChristianity, with a fake message.
This is a fallacy. I tried to point it out before to you.

No true Scotsman

The statement "no true Christian" would do some such thing is often a fallacy, since the term "Christian" is used by a wide and disparate variety of people. This broad nature of the category is such that its use has very little meaning when it comes to defining a narrow property or behavior. If there is no one accepted definition of the subject, then the definition must be understood in context, or defined in the initial argument for the discussion at hand.

You see no significant distinction between the views of a gnostic and the views of a literalism?!
You misunderstand a very basic point. No, I'm not saying that I son't see any significant distinction between Gnostic's and literalism's. You are taking my point of view out of context.

I'm saying that when you look at the history of beliefs and theology and consider all philosophies there is nothing that sticks out about gnosticism that would make it somehow special in comparison to all other beliefs. Nothing that would make me think that this set of beliefs is representative of the truth in a way that the others are not.
 
Many of these kids become disenchanted with the whole thing and rebel.

I see, so your resorting to the philosophical tactic I like to call the "argument from Touched by an Angel". This defines all atheists as somehow being really cheesed off with God for not revealing himself and announcing in a huff. "Well then I just won't believe in you anymore, so take that God!"

STRAW MAN

My own personal experience was very different from the one you're trying to force on me to comfort yourself. In fact, I'll bet my personal experience is much more like those of the other atheists here than your scenario is. There was no anger, frustration or rebellion involved in my change of view. It was a kind of private, quiet introspection and honest examination that caused me to gradually reexamine my previous beliefs. When I finally realized I was an atheist it was actually a rather peaceful experience.

Steven
 
How is that an answer to my question? how does Gnosticism vs. modern literalism invalidate atheism?
That wasn't your question. You asked:
"why should atheists address a form of religion that is virtually dead in place of a religion that has a powerful influence on the modern world? The legitimacy of modern Christianity in relation to ancient writings has little to do with its current relevance to our world."

You infer that gnosticism is not worth addressing since few are now gnostics.
My response is that gnosticism is experiencing a rebirth. Also, with ever-increasing evidence, christian-literalism will die a slow death... and it's "influence" will disappear.

Hypothetical scenario:
Lg: X is true.
Bill: Yahoo! (he believes Lg and goes to tell his friends):- Lg says Y is true.

Bills friends believe him and tell their friends. Soon, Bill builds quite a following and their influence grows and grows.
Unfortunately, new evidence eventually crops up which shows that Lg actually said that "X is true".
The consequences to this scenario are obvious - belief in 'Y' will die and the influence of those believers in Y will evaporate.
Also, believers in X will grow in numbers.

This means that the critics of Y will also evaporate. They're wasting their time. If they're interested in the truth of X, they need to refocus their attention... and since they were interested in Y, they should be interested in X.
= that's why atheists should address gnosticism.
From an atheist viewpoint the main difference is that one advocates two gods (a belief at odds with your stated beliefs) while the other claims only one God, in three parts (some assembly required).
You're incorrect. Pagan gnostics only appear to believe in more than one God - initiates into 'The Mysteries' understood that there was only one God.
Further, I'm specifically discussing Christian gnostics here... which two Gods are you refering to?
I see you like the straw man of the atheist as frustrated and angry. Your suspicion about why most of the atheists on this forum came to be atheists may be erroneous. Do you have any data? Perhaps you could interview us? Your statement regarding the sufficiency of our atheist view does nothing but reinforce your own preconceived notions about us.

Steven
Atheists are people that see no credibility in the God that they're familiar with. Also, they mistakenly believe that science provides answers about existence. It doesn't.
Also, perhaps they don't care because they enjoy their lives and are tired of feeling guilty for doing so.

It's all irrelevant.
 

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