Palestinian Civil War

[zenith-nadir]

Well I waited a week and a half to see if the usual Sharon-is-the cause-of-everything crowd would be as even-handed and forthcoming with their savvy political insights regarding the Middle East, specifically the case of the civil war now raging in Gaza and the West Bank. Yet, not a peep was heard on the JREF stage, very telling don't you think?

I was at AP reading this story....

Pro-Arafat Militants Break Up Fatah Conference, in Sign of Leadership Split - Aug 1, 2004

NABLUS, West Bank (AP) - Gunmen loyal to Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat opened fire Sunday at a conference of Arafat's Fatah movement, in the latest sign of factional infighting among the Palestinian leadership. The incident occurred a day after members of the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent Fatah offshoot, torched the governor's offices in the West Bank town of Jenin, demanding financial support from the Palestinian Authority. The same day, another group kidnapped three foreign church volunteers in Nablus - an American, a Briton and an Irishman. The hostages were freed after the Palestinian Authority promised to pay the militants an unspecified amount, officials said.

....and I felt this is a excellent example of my repeated argument that there can be no peace between Israel and the palestinians until Arafat and the islamofascists are gone.

My position from day one at JREF is that the worst thing to ever happen to the Palestinians was that the Arab League handed every palestinians' fate to Arafat. The second worse thing was that the U.N. legitimized Arafat in 1974 and then gave the PLO observer status at the UN in 1975. 1948 is a long long way from 1974 and giving a terrorist group, who's leader openly said it's goal was the destruction of Israel, control of an entire people was a huge mistake. Now I know the usual Sharon-is-the cause-of-everything crowd will choke on that bone and spin that into the "creation of Israel" was the mistake, I am standing by for it. Yet I digress...

Gunmen opening fire at a Fateh conference has nothing to do with the IDF or with occupation or with the suicide bomber wall or with Sharon. Gunmen opening fire at a Fateh conference has everything to do with the reason there is no peace between Israel and the Palestinians. Islamofascism and the use of violence for political means. If Palestinians are willing to attack each other how the hell are they going to make peace with their enemies?

There is civil war going on right now between the Islamofascists and the Palestinian Authority, both of whom could give a rats ass about the average non-combatant Palestinian. They are fighting for turf, control and greed. The moment Sharon said all jews are leaving Gaza the war began. They have little care for the consequences of their actions on the average palestinian family. They don't really care about peace, for the Islamofascists want to destroy Israel and turn it into a Taliban-like state while the Palestinian Authority is just too busy stealing from the Palestinians. This has been going on since Arafat arrived from exile in Tunisia. He has been paying off the islamofascists to keep attacking Israel in a vain attempt that they actually might destroy Israel while on the other hand he has been playing the world like a stratovarius claiming poverty and martydom while he quietly steals billions in International Palestinian Aid. And to blame all that on Sharon, who was only elected 4 years ago, or to blame it on the "biblical borders of zionists" is beyond hypocrisy.

Until the islamofascists are destroyed, until Arafat and the Palestinian Authority are replaced there can be no peace. The status quo has remained since Arafat returned from Tunisia and it shall remain until he dies. Which sadly, I feel will cause another terrible civil war between the old guard, new guard and the Islamofascists. The civil war in Gaza and the West Bank is the legacy of Arafat and the PLO. Diplomacy by gunpoint.

 

[PogoPedant]

There's something strange going on the world, when it's the moderates that cry 'Revolution!'.

 

[a_unique_person]

You'll never see a Judeofascist opeing fire at an Israeli leader, oh wait, one did. He is hero to many today.

Yes, it's a mess out there. Blaming Arafat alone is a useful ploy, but not useful means to a solution to the problem.

I have read that part of the reason Arafat is in power is just to piss off the Israeli occupiers, apparently. Anything that they do that agrees with Israel is giving in to the occupation.

You will note he is under attack himself from all sides, the moderates who want someone more ready to negotiate a deal, the radicals who want him to do what they want, and everyone who doesn't want to put up with his nepotism and corruption.

 

[zenith-nadir]

You'll never see a Judeofascist opeing fire at an Israeli leader, oh wait, one did. He is hero to many today.

Rabin's assasination was an exception to the rule and a deeply sad event for 98% of all Israelis. The other 1.5% didn't have an opinion and the remaining 0.5% are mentally deficient and think the assasin the "hero". One cannot draw a parallel between an anomaly like that and the organized characteristics, track records and mandates of the PLO, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aksa...

Originally posted by a_unique_person Yes, it's a mess out there. Blaming Arafat alone is a useful ploy, but not useful means to a solution to the problem.

Ariel Sharon, Ehud Barak, Binyamin Netanyahu, Shimon Peres, Yitzhak Rabin, Yitzhak Shamir, Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, Bush Jr., Tony Blair, John Major, Margaret Thatcher, Hosny Mubarak, King Abdullah II, King Hussein, King Fahd and all their respective governments have tried to make peace with just one guy, Yasser Arafat, and failed. Either, A) all of them are incompetent or, B) there is a giant conspiracy to frame Yasser Arafat or, C) Arafat is the stumbling block. I think that blaming Arafat is far from a "ploy".

Originally posted by a_unique_person I have read that part of the reason Arafat is in power is just to piss off the Israeli occupiers, apparently. Anything that they do that agrees with Israel is giving in to the occupation.

Arafat is in power because anyone who disagrees with him has quit or was run off, jailed or killed. That is how he has remained ultimate ruler for 30 years. He is not there to "piss off the occupiers", he is there by force and collusion.

Originally posted by a_unique_person You will note he is under attack himself from all sides, the moderates who want someone more ready to negotiate a deal, the radicals who want him to do what they want, and everyone who doesn't want to put up with his nepotism and corruption.

He is under attack from all sides because he has been playing all sides for decades. Now the jig is up so to speak and he can't stop funding terrorism, stealing aid money and make peace with Israel all at the same time. He got away with it for years but now the cat's out of the bag. I truely belive that the only reason Israel and Palestinians do not have peace is largely in part to the performance, and lack thereof, of Yasser Arafat a_u_p.

 

[a_unique_person]

Maybe he is caught in the middle of a bitter, ongoing war.

However, as CapelDodger has pointed out, any capitulation of the Palestinians, either by negotiation or force, could result in Israel having to face it's own demons.

The assasination of Rabin was just the first shot in this war. Don't kid yourself. Already, Sharon, an arch right winger, is distancing himself from the even more extreme elements of his own party and co-alition allies. They will not accept a retreat from Gaza lightly.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Maybe he is caught in the middle of a bitter, ongoing war.

Ya, a war he began in 1965 with the first terrorist attack on Israel by Fateh.

The assasination of Rabin was just the first shot in this war. Don't kid yourself.

The Palestinian civil war is between palestinians, not between "settlers" and palestinians or "zionists" and palestinians. Perhaps this thread could be better served if one can confine one's focus on the thread's topic.

Originally posted by a_unique_person Already, Sharon, an arch right winger, is distancing himself from the even more extreme elements of his own party and co-alition allies. They will not accept a retreat from Gaza lightly.

But alas Israel is retreating and instead of a victory for the palestinians you once again turn the focus onto Sharon. Is it possible for you to talk about the Palestinian civil war without continued references to Israel and Sharon?

 

[Skeptic]

Is it possible for you to talk about the Palestinian civil war without continued references to Israel and Sharon?

No, because, you see, EVERYTHING the Palestinians do is israel's fault.

 

[zenith-nadir]

From: West Bank on verge of unprecedented chaos, Palestinian leaders warn - Sun Aug 1, 5:06 PM ET

JENIN, West Bank (AFP) - Palestinian leaders warned the West Bank was on the verge of unprecedented chaos as thousands of demonstrators showed their support for militants who attacked the offices here of the security services and local governor

....in a fresh challenge to the Palestinian Authority around 5,000 people took to the streets of Jenin, in the northern West Bank, in support of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades...

Dozens of fighters fired their guns in the air, pledging support for the powerful local leader of the Brigades, Zakaria Zubeidi. "Anyone touches him (Zubeidi), we will kill him. Anyone who touches him is a collaborator," the crowd chanted in unison.

Zubeidi had justified Saturday's arson attack on the security services by charging its officers were "cooperating" with Israel's Shin Beth domestic intelligence service to wipe out members of his organisation.

Even Palestinian Security Services arresting Palestinian militants for torching Palestinian buildings is "cooperating with Israel". Try and wrap your head around that logic.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Palestinian Collaborator Killed in Bed - Mon, Aug 02, 2004

Associated Press - GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Five masked men broke into a hospital Monday and shot dead a convicted Palestinian collaborator who had been wounded in a grenade attack in his prison cell just hours earlier.

Assassinations like that of Mahmoud al Sharef, accused of helping Israel, are relatively common.

In the West Bank town of Ramallah, hundreds of Palestinians rallied Monday in support of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat who has been under attack for the lawlessness and corruption in the Palestinian territories. The rally occurred a day after Arab newspapers published unusually sharp comments against Arafat by Mohammed Dahlan, a former Gaza security chief campaigning for reform in Arafat's Palestinian Authority.

"You are the defenders of the sacred land," Arafat told the crowd, praising his supporters for "thwarting the conspiracy" against him.

Notice how Arafat uses islamofascism, ("defenders of the sacred land"), even against other palestinians, (Mohammed Dahlan), who Arafat alledges is "conspiring against him". That is how Arafat gets rid of his "competition" and how he has stayed in power for 30+ years. Dahlan is critical of Arafat ergo Dahlan is a "conspirator" and not a defender of the "sacred land".

 

[zenith-nadir]

So Zenith do you want to talk about the Palestinian civil war?

Sure Zenith, I'm tired of talking about Sharon, the wall, settlers, and evil zionists from the 19th century.

Ok, what do you think?

I think Arafat is incapable of making that critical leap from criminal-terrorist-leader to democratic statesman. His entire life was devoted to terrorism, war and crime, he knows nothing of democracy or how to run a country. He has no real interest in reforming finacial institutions, elections or curbing terrorism.

What about in 98-99 when Palestinian security services were really arresting militants? Wasn't that curbing terrorism?

In a way Zenith, they were arrested and then subsequently releasing militants without trial, for there has never been a functioning Palestinian judiciary. Now those same militants can stroll into the Palestinian's own Shifa Hospital and execute other Palestinians lying in their hospital beds.

So what is Arafat suppose to do?

Well Zenith, I feel that there is nothing he can do, for he can never change and the situation is out of his control now. Previously he would just use money and muscle to maintain control, but the money has all but dried up and the old guard just doesn't have the muscle the new Turks have.

So what do you think is gonna happen Zenith?

Not much I am afraid, Arafat will do what he always does in a crisis, cling to power....he will announce reforms, make a move or two in the direction of reform, announce he will relegate some of his executive powers and then none of it will ever materialize. Happens every time.

I'll have to agree Zenith, he has used that ploy many times.

I also think Arafat and others will say the Palestinian unrest is an Israeli plot to discredit him. That is always plan "B" in his bag of tricks. The old keep-your-eye-on-the-ball trick.

So what's next?

Really I dunno Zenith, there are too many volitile factors involved, you have Arafat's domestic Palestinian opponents, the Islamofascists like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, you have crazy Islamofascists splinter groups and then the cronyism and nepotism of the Palestinian Authority. There is no one for the Palestinian people to rely upon, and they are the ones who are truely suffering because of all this crap. One would have thought jews pulling out of Gaza would be a good thing for the Palestinians instead it has turned into one big gunfight for power. If the islamofascists are willing to turn on the Palestinian Authority how can the Palestinian Authority make peace with Israel? It can't even make peace with it's own people. It's a sad commentary on the society Arafat has built for the average palestinian, franklythe average palestinian had it better before Arafat arrived from exile in Tunisia.

 

[zenith-nadir]

Cementgate or concretegate? I can't decide which sounds better...

From : Aljazeera - Sunday 01 August 2004

Cement scandal highlights corruption By Khalid Amayreh

The Palestinian Authority's general prosecutor has begun an extensive investigation into the so-called Egyptian cement scandal. It is claimed that two Palestinian companies imported Egyptian cement and diverted it to Israel where it is believed it was used in the building of Israel's separation wall.

A number of senior and junior PA officials may be indicted for their involvement in the affair which has already caused huge embarrassment to an increasingly beleaguered Palestinian Authority and seriously undermined its credibility, if not legitimacy. The officials allegedly received grafts, bribes, kickbacks, or payments in return for their "silence", falsifying documents and facilitating the "deal".

The cement was to be used to rebuild Palestinian homes and buildings destroyed by the Israeli occupation army, particularly in the Gaza Strip where entire neighbourhoods in Rafah in the south were bulldozed recently. However, instead of dealing honourably with the goodwill gesture, a number of corrupt and well-connected businessmen, most likely in coordination with influential figures within the PA, were obtained a licence to import the cement from the PA Economy Ministry, headed by Mahir al-Masri.

It is now clear that PA chairman Arafat knew about the affair.

Notwithstanding its gravity, the current scandal represents only a small part of the huge corruption phenomenon inundating the Palestinian Authority. Indeed, one could argue that corruption, with its various manifestations and expressions such as bribery, nepotism, favouritism, cronyism, kickbacks, pitfall profits and embezzlement and theft, served as the modus operandi of the PA operations since day one.

Turning over cement destined for palestinian homes to help build the Israeli's separation barrier for profit...truth is stranger than fiction...

 

[zenith-nadir]

Hey Zenith don't ya think that after nearly a week it's odd that the usual suspects have nothing to say?

My guess is Zenith that if you remove "zionists", Sharon and Israel from the equation they really have nothing to say about the situation in the Middle East after all.

And here I thought they were more pro-palestinian than anti-Israeli Zenith, guess I was misled on that count.

I don't think you were misled Zenith, but do you really think a thread on the Palestinian civil war is important?

Well Zenith it is very important because it is an exposé on the inner machinations of Arafat and the Palestinian Authority. I think that once one is educated on Arafat and the Palestinian Authority the reasons for the wall, the lack of peace and the islamofascist groups become much clearer.

Even the E.U. fraud squard is finally on the case;

EU wants to question Palestinian prisoners - (UPI) - Aug. 4 2004

The European Union wants to question Palestinian prisoners held in Israel on the Palestinian Authority's use of EU contributions to fund terrorism.

The Haaretz newspaper said the European Parliament has unanimously demanded a probe of allegations that Palestinian President Yasser Arafat and senior officials transferred EU funds to Fatah's armed wing, the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by zenith-nadir
My guess is Zenith that if you remove "zionists", Sharon and Israel from the equation they really have nothing to say about the situation in the Middle East after all.

Right. When there is an ethnic element to any conflict, the easy knee-jerk reaction is to blame the ethnicity that's closest to European, most democratic, better military, etc. Looking at the actual facts and seeing who is perpetuating the conflict and exploiting the people...well, that's just too complex.

 

[zenith-nadir]

I also think Arafat and others will say the Palestinian unrest is an Israeli plot to discredit him. That is always plan "B" in his bag of tricks. The old keep-your-eye-on-the-ball trick.

Well I wasn't far off, the old keep-your-eye-on-the-ball tricks have begun.

Fatah official:Israel plans Arafat slaying - Aug. 5 (UPI)

A senior Palestinian official Thursday accused Israel of planning to assassinate Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat and senior aides.

Al-Hassan said the decision to get rid of Arafat and replace him with a pro-Israel Palestinian was taken after the PA president rejected the a peace proposal at the Camp David summit hosted by former U.S. President Bill Clinton in the summer of 2000.

 

[Skeptic]

Maybe he is caught in the middle of a bitter, ongoing war.

And Hitler was "caught in the middle of a bitter, ongoing war" during WWII...

 

[Skeptic]

Well I wasn't far off, the old keep-your-eye-on-the-ball tricks have begun.

Fatah official:Israel plans Arafat slaying - Aug. 5 (UPI)

Gee, what a surprise.

I keep trying to find anything that goes wrong anywhere in the Arab world that is not instantly blamed on israel / "zionists agents" / the Mossad / the jews in general.

No luck so far.

 

[Elind]

Until the islamofascists are destroyed, until Arafat and the Palestinian Authority are replaced there can be no peace. The status quo has remained since Arafat returned from Tunisia and it shall remain until he dies. Which sadly, I feel will cause another terrible civil war between the old guard, new guard and the Islamofascists. The civil war in Gaza and the West Bank is the legacy of Arafat and the PLO. Diplomacy by gunpoint.

Perhaps it's a much simpler issue? Drawing some examples from the inability of the Iraqis to step up to govern their country (or take out the garbage), and their willingness to kill on a whim or a hard-on for the afterlife hookers, and the behaviour of the Afghans, and many Pakistanis, and not to mention Al Qaeda and more; one should ask where do all these similar, yet very different people, who behave the same way come from?

Islamofascists all come from Islam, and if you spit on one who is your prisoner then all of Islam will stand up and defend his beliefs. Never mind that the next day he will kill any other Muslim who gets in his way. Seems to me there is something rotten somewhere.

 

[davefoc]

Hi ZN,
It was nice to see that you were in a mood to answer questions. I wonder if you might take the time to answer a few more that were posed by somebody other than yourself?

For instance:

Do Palestinian problems prove that the Israeli expansionist policies are good for the Israelis or good for the Palestinians or good for the middle east or good for the US or good for the world?

Do Palestinian problems justify the Israeli massacres of Palestinians?
for instance:

http://www.ariga.com/peacewatch/dy/

Do you have some thoughts about how the Palestinians might be doing if they were the recipients of more than a third of US foreign aid overall? Say 3 billion dollars a year or so.

Does the existence of Palestinian internal civil disruption suggest that anything that anyone has ever posted in this forum is not true? Has anyone ever suggested in any post that the Palestinians wouldn't have any problems if the Israelis weren't occupying their lands?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Do Palestinian problems prove that the Israeli expansionist policies are good for the Israelis or good for the Palestinians

Well I would say that "Israeli expansionist policies" have nothing to do with how Yasser Arafat has run the Palestinian Authority, nor is it the cause of the Palestinian civil war which began after the "Israels' expansionist policies" included removing all settlers from Gaza.

Do you have some thoughts about how the Palestinians might be doing if they were the recipients of more than a third of US foreign aid overall? Say 3 billion dollars a year or so.

That is an "if" statement and a hypothetical, but I would hypothesize that Arafat would have stolen that money as well and the Palestinians would have never seen two thirds of it. Yet again that "if" statement has nothing to do how Arafat ran the Palestinian Authority for the past decade nor is it the cause of the Palestinian civil war.

Does the existence of Palestinian internal civil disruption suggest that anything that anyone has ever posted in this forum is not true?

I am sure plenty of things people have posted in this forum have turned out to be true and plenty of things people have posted in this forum have turned out to be not true. How does that question have any bearing on how Arafat has ran the Palestinian Authority for the past decade?

Originally posted by davefoc Has anyone ever suggested in any post that the Palestinians wouldn't have any problems if the Israelis weren't occupying their lands.

Bribery, nepotism, favouritism, cronyism, kickbacks, theft and embezzlement by Arafat and some members of the Palestinian Authority have nothing to do with Israeli occupation, but it has everything to do with the civil unrest and power plays between the competing islamofascist groups.

Here's a question for you davefoc, can you talk about Arafat and the Palestinian Authority or the Palestinian civil war without blaming Israel and/or using Israeli-based hypothetical questions?

 

[zenith-nadir]

Full text: Aksa leader: Intifada is in its death throes - Aug. 6, 2004 0:23

It's not so much what Zakariya Zubeidi, the fugitive leader of the West Bank Aksa Martyrs Brigades, says, but how he says it. Zubeidi speaks in the vacant tones of a ghost.

"The intifada is in its death throes. These are the final stages – this I can confirm," he said on Wednesday.

The intifada has vented its suicidal wrath on Israelis, but in recent weeks criticism of the Palestinian Authority has ensconced itself in common parlance. "Not only was the intifada a failure, but we are a total failure. We achieved nothing in 50 years of struggle; we've achieved only our survival."

One of the Palestinian's few self-critical leaders, Zubeidi explained: "My position is neither legal nor legitimate. But an independent judiciary would be able to stop the corruption and enact the reforms we need to save this society."

The Aksa Martyrs Brigades are credited with numerous terrorist attacks that killed scores of Israelis, and Zubeidi still ranks high on Israel's wanted list. PA leaders assembled al-Aksa as Fatah's response to the increasingly popular Hamas terrorist branch, Izzadin Kassam. But they lost control somewhere along the way.

Even terrorists realize the Palestinian Authority has done nothing to help the Palestinians and that the intifada is a one-way dead end street.