Organic Woo?

[zombiebex]

I just read an article here, laying out the myths and facts of organic food. Got me wondering how many of those facts are true and which are woo. From the article:

WHAT IS LOCALLY GROWN?
Locally grown means seasonal food from small farms. Some say it applies only to foods grown within a 100-mile radius; others stretch it to 250 miles.

MUSTS: Seasonal fruits, seasonal vegetables, milk and dairy.

WHY? Local crops harvested at their peak of freshness and flavor offer superior nutrient density, and buying produce from local growers reduces the environmental impact and costs of transporting product.

MYTHS: Local food is not necessarily organically grown. However, there is truth to many local farmers' claims that they do not use pesticides.

WHY? They just can't advertise themselves as certified organic unless they've gone through the certification process, which is lengthy and expensive.

WHAT'S ORGANIC?
For plants, organic means grown on certified organic land without synthetic fertilizers or chemicals (like pesticides). Genetic modification and irradiation are also off-limits. For animals, organic means access to the outdoors, only organic feed for at least a year, and no antibiotics or growth hormones.

MUSTS: Apples, cherries, grapes (especially if they're imported), nectarines, peaches, pears, raspberries, strawberries, bell peppers, celery, potatoes, spinach, beef, poultry and dairy.

WHY? Because these fruits and veggies have been found to contain the most pesticide residue, even after being washed, and organic meats and dairy (though much more expensive) reduce your exposure to toxins, including the one that causes mad cow disease.

MYTHS You don't need to worry about buying these organic: bananas, kiwi, mangoes, papaya, pineapple, asparagus, avocado, broccoli, cauliflower, corn, onion, sweet peas, and seafood.

WHY? Because these fruits and veggies tend not to carry pesticide residue, and seafood has no USDA organic certification standards (so "organic seafood" doesn't mean much).

Seems like a good article, but I did find my skeptic sense going off when I came across the word toxins.

I'll admit to buying organic milk, mostly because of fear of the hormones. (What's the worst those supposed hormones can do, though??)

And what about that new "all natural" 7up? Surely there is a difference between organic and all natural if they're calling that stuff all natural. What does all natural even mean anymore??

Thoughts?

 

[Freethinker]

reduce your exposure to toxins, including the one that causes mad cow disease.

BSE is spread by a prion. Not really what I'd classify as a toxin. The rest of the article makes sense.

 

[vexed]

And what about that new "all natural" 7up? Surely there is a difference between organic and all natural if they're calling that stuff all natural. What does all natural even mean anymore??

Thoughts?

'Natural' seems to be an advertising thing, people somehow feel safer if a product says 'natural' on it. Then again as someone on this forum has said before, hemlock is also natural. So it's up to you how much stock you want to put in 'natural' products.

 

[kellyb]

WHAT'S ORGANIC?
For plants, organic means grown on certified organic land without synthetic fertilizers or chemicals (like pesticides).

That's not true from what I understand. There are "synthetic" pesticides and "chemicals" that organic growers can use. They're just supposed to be "less toxic" (or something along those lines).

 

[vexed]

And what about that new "all natural" 7up? Surely there is a difference between organic and all natural if they're calling that stuff all natural. What does all natural even mean anymore??

Thoughts?

'Natural' seems to be an advertising thing, people somehow feel safer if a product says 'natural' on it. Then again as someone on this forum has said before, hemlock is also natural. So it's up to you how much stock you want to put in 'natural' products.

 

[kellyb]

And the "All natural" 7-up thing was a scam...
http://cspinet.org/new/200701121.html

 

[kellyb]

doublepost

 

[Rolfe]

It's pretty superficial. It doesn't mention the don't-vaccinate-the-animals stuff that comes into it, or the whole business of avoiding perfectly normal and sensible prophylactic treatments such as anti-parasite treatments (without which the animals might suffer from parasite infestations and resulting illness) or point out that "no antibiotics" may mean that animals suffer because bacterial illnesses aren't treated.

The whole question of rational, scientifically determined withdrawal times versus woo "total abstinence" philosophy or irrational doubling of the statutory withdrawal times is a major issue and it doesn't even get a mention.

Rolfe.

 

[zombiebex]

I'm sitting here with my "all natural" Snapple, and the second ingredient is High Fructose Corn Syrup. Yes, after the 7up ad, I put NO stock int he words "all natural."

 

[kellyb]

It's pretty superficial. It doesn't mention the don't-vaccinate-the-animals stuff that comes into it, or the whole business of avoiding perfectly normal and sensible prophylactic treatments such as anti-parasite treatments (without which the animals might suffer from parasite infestations and resulting illness) or point out that "no antibiotics" may mean that animals suffer because bacterial illnesses aren't treated.

The whole question of rational, scientifically determined withdrawal times versus woo "total abstinence" philosophy or irrational doubling of the statutory withdrawal times is a major issue and it doesn't even get a mention.

Rolfe.

The issue in the US, though, is that the only milk available without BGH is "organic". And BGH is really the only (or at least main) thing people who buy "organic" want to avoid.

There's also a total scam aspect to organic animal products where the organic producers give the impression that their animals are treated more humanely, when in reality, it's usually not the case, and is often the total opposite.

 

[zombiebex]

My sister is a big fan of organics, so I'm used to buying them.

I also have bought organic eggs from free range chickens. Free Range conjures up images of the chickend prancing through big green enclosures... I'm sure this isn't al all the case.

These eggs are brown, too. Which is odd. Guess they want us to think they're earthier because they are brown? (as opposed to the color/breed of chicken.)

 

[kellyb]

My sister is a big fan of organics, so I'm used to buying them.

I also have bought organic eggs from free range chickens. Free Range conjures up images of the chickend prancing through big green enclosures... I'm sure this isn't al all the case.

These eggs are brown, too. Which is odd. Guess they want us to think they're earthier because they are brown? (as opposed to the color/breed of chicken.)

I think the organic eggs are actually one of the more legit claims when it comes to superior nutrition. Omega 3 fatty acids are actually good for you, and a while back I found (I'll look it up again if anyone wants) a Department of Agriculture site that verified that the organic eggs really are much higher in Omega 3's.
Not sure what the deal is with the brown eggs, though.
I buy Eggland's Best eggs, and the say their chickens are "cage free". Which sounds good, but you never know. I've been meaning to look into that.
Having looked into the practices of "Horizon" milk, I'm pretty cynical.

 

[zombiebex]

Quoth the Wikipedia:

Free-range chicken eggs, however, have no legal definition in the United States. Likewise, free-range egg producers have no common standard on what the term means. Many egg farmers sell their eggs as free range merely because their cages are 2 or 3 inches above average size, or there is a window in the shed.

Another article on chickens is here. Not sure what the actual difference between cage free and free range are.

 

[Loss Leader]

I just read an article laying out the myths and facts of organic food.

Some truth but a whole lot of nonsense. It's a shame, really. In my mind, the real arguments for locally-grown organic (and management-intensive polyculture) farming are so persuasive that no embelishment is needed.

Here we go:

Locally grown means seasonal food from small farms. Some say it applies only to foods grown within a 100-mile radius; others stretch it to 250 miles.

It's true that there is no accepted definition of "locally grown." If you can get your produce in a morning's drive, I consider that local. My personal definition is about 150 miles max.

MUSTS: Seasonal fruits, seasonal vegetables, milk and dairy.

I don't even know what this means.

Local crops harvested at their peak of freshness and flavor offer superior nutrient density,

False, sort of. Foods that have been bred for long shelf lives and easy transportation are likely to be less nutritious than their non-inbred siblings but just because a food is local does not mean that the plant isn't a long-life low-nutrient variety. Same thing with organics: foods grown in intensively managed polyculture soil will be more nutritious than food grown in that N-P-K crap but, once again, just because it's grown locally doesn't mean it's grown on good, organic, polyculture soil.

and buying produce from local growers reduces the environmental impact and costs of transporting product.

True. In the US, the average food item travels 1,500 miles to your table. Anything you can do to bring that number down saves gas and the carbon emissions that accompanies it.

MYTHS: Local food is not necessarily organically grown. However, there is truth to many local farmers' claims that they do not use pesticides.

There is no way to ascertain this except to ask the individual farmer. But “organic” means a lot more than not using pesticides. It means not using fertilizer whose nitrogen was derived from petrolium. Assume unless otherwise informed that the farmer used the cheapest and most environmentally unfriendly methods of farming.

WHY? They just can't advertise themselves as certified organic unless they've gone through the certification process, which is lengthy and expensive.

True but so what?

WHAT'S ORGANIC?
For plants, organic means grown on certified organic land without synthetic fertilizers or chemicals (like pesticides). Genetic modification and irradiation are also off-limits. For animals, organic means access to the outdoors, only organic feed for at least a year, and no antibiotics or growth hormones.

Largely true.

MUSTS: Apples, cherries, grapes (especially if they're imported), nectarines, peaches, pears, raspberries, strawberries, bell peppers, celery, potatoes, spinach, beef, poultry and dairy.

What does this mean?

WHY? Because these fruits and veggies have been found to contain the most pesticide residue, even after being washed, and organic meats and dairy (though much more expensive) reduce your exposure to toxins,

They may reduce your exposure to toxins but does that mean they keep you healthier? Absolutely nobody on planet Earth knows. It seems like the toxins on our foods would contribute to cancer but the link is only hypothetical. It hasn’t been demonstrated.

including the one that causes mad cow disease.

Blatently and egregiously false.

First of all, the link between human ingestion of contaminated meat and mad cow disease is still under debate. It is not clear that humans can contract Creutzfeldt-Jacob Disease, the similar human ailment, from eating diseased cow tissue. Of the hundreds of thousands of exposed people, only 155 have developed CJD. (source).

Even so, the only possible way to transmit mad cow disease is by eating infected cow brain tissue. There is only one way to do this: 1) a slaughterhouse accidentally allows in an infected cow; 2) the slaughter of the cow is botched and brain tissue is exposed; 3) the brain tissue gets spread by the slaughtering knife onto consumable cow muscles; and 4) the whole thing isn’t caught in time.

The raising of cows in an “organic” environment has NOTHING to do with this.

MYTHS You don't need to worry about buying these organic: bananas, kiwi, mangoes, papaya, pineapple, asparagus, avocado, broccoli, cauliflower, corn, onion, sweet peas, and seafood.

Okay. You should still worry about the working conditions of those who harvest tropical fruits like bananas and mangoes. You should also worry about the fuel expended to ship them to you.

As to worries about seafood - there are entire books on the subject. Overfishing may be the one factor that kills this planet.

I don’t understand calling this a “myth.” This article is really poorly researched and written.

 

[Mongrel]

Quoth the Wikipedia:



Another article on chickens is here. Not sure what the actual difference between cage free and free range are.

One of the honest supermarkets in the UK has (or used to have) 3 categories of eggs. Battery, perchery and Free range. I think the perchery may be equivalent to Cage free, all it meant was the chickens were confined in a barn but not within cages. Room to roam around, but still crowded, and do whatever chickens get up to in crowds

 

[kellyb]

Blatently and egregiously false.

First of all, the link between human ingestion of contaminated meat and mad cow disease is still under debate. It is not clear that humans can contract Creutzfeldt-Jacob Disease, the similar human ailment, from eating diseased cow tissue. Of the hundreds of thousands of exposed people, only 155 have developed CJD. (source).

Even so, the only possible way to transmit mad cow disease is by eating infected cow brain tissue. There is only one way to do this: 1) a slaughterhouse accidentally allows in an infected cow; 2) the slaughter of the cow is botched and brain tissue is exposed; 3) the brain tissue gets spread by the slaughtering knife onto consumable cow muscles; and 4) the whole thing isn’t caught in time.

The raising of cows in an “organic” environment has NOTHING to do with this.

I think they're talking about the organophosphates theory of prion diseases there.

http://enhs.umn.edu/hazards/hazardssite/prions/prionmetabolislm.html

The Emerging Organophosphate Hypothesis

An alternative hypothesis to the current meat and bone meal/BSE theory, states that the external factor initiating the conversion of PrPc to PrPsc may be phosmet, an organophosphate insecticide.(6) The use of phosmet on cows was compulsory in the U.K. in the 1980's to eradicate the Warble fly. Phosmet was poured along the backbone of cows in high doses (20mg/Kg).(6, 8) The proponents of this organophosphate theory oppose the theory that Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE) arose from scrapie and spread through infected meat and bone meal cattle feed. The organophosphate theory is based on a chemical source of disease, as opposed to an infectious source, and that phosmet is at least partially responsible for the BSE epidemic.

Far from proven, but I'm pretty sure it's actually considered a valid theory.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I think they're talking about the organophosphates theory of prion diseases there.

http://enhs.umn.edu/hazards/hazardssite/prions/prionmetabolislm.html



Far from proven, but I'm pretty sure it's actually considered a valid theory.

Also inconsistent with Kuru. Or where they coating their dead in organophosphates?

 

[kellyb]

Also inconsistent with Kuru. Or where they coating their dead in organophosphates?

There are inconsistencies that pop up with all the prion diseases, though. There's fatal familial insomnia, which doesn't appear to be transmissible whatsoever, CWD in deer, which is so transmissible all they have to do is drink water from a lake another infected deer has drank from and they're doomed, etc.
You can't really take the "rules" from one species or one form and apply them to the others. We don't know enough about it yet.

 

[Rolfe]

I think they're talking about the organophosphates theory of prion diseases there.

http://enhs.umn.edu/hazards/hazardssite/prions/prionmetabolislm.html



Far from proven, but I'm pretty sure it's actually considered a valid theory.

Nah. Totally debunked as far as veterinary researchers are concerned.

I agree, the BSE -> vCJD link is not proven (though the circumstantial evidence is middling to fair), but if it all falls apart, organophosphates ain't in the firing line.

I never even thought of that old, discredited theory when I read the bit about toxins and BSE. If they're latching on to that their credibility is somewhere due south of zero.

About the same as most committed "organic" advocates, come to think of it.

Rolfe.

 

[Loss Leader]

You can't really take the "rules" from one species or one form and apply them to the others. We don't know enough about it yet.

Which just goes to show that the article, to the extent that it made a definite pronouncement that organic meat was safer in terms of mad cow disease, was completely unjustified.