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Only Atheists against organized religion?

ponderingturtle

Orthogonal Vector
ponderingturtle
Joined
Jul 11, 2006
Messages
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To criticize organized religion in general(note this is not religious belief but the social organization of religion) does someone need to be an atheist?

Why do people so readily assume atheism when people make comments against organized religion?

I have just noticed that attacks on religion here often get confused with attacks on belief. One is a social organization and one is a belief, so I don't get why they are so readily confused.
 
ponderingturtle said:
To criticize organized religion in general(note this is not religious belief but the social organization of religion) does someone need to be an atheist?

Why do people so readily assume atheism when people make comments against organized religion?

I have just noticed that attacks on religion here often get confused with attacks on belief. One is a social organization and one is a belief, so I don't get why they are so readily confused.
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I believe it is a persecution complex. And this is odd because I know a lot of religious people who want nothing to do with organized religion, plus a lot of religious people that say "Love the sinner, hate the sin". You would think that they would see that the reverse could also be true. Love the believer, hate the belief.
 
Tricky said:
I believe it is a persecution complex. And this is odd because I know a lot of religious people who want nothing to do with organized religion, plus a lot of religious people that say "Love the sinner, hate the sin". You would think that they would see that the reverse could also be true. Love the believer, hate the belief.
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My point is that you can hate the club and organization with out hateing the belief.

Scientology with out the Co$? Not something that I would really care about other than the BS claims that they make.
 
I think this is a really good point and in general I've noticed that it happens in many different regards. Case in point, look at the immediate reactions to me when I came on here. You see posters insisting on the fact that I am a religious believer simply because I don't take their side in an argument.

Relgion is the bane on society because it takes the idea of personal transcendence which to me is the corner stone of any spiritual ideology and tries to categorize it and make it something that can be used in a political way.

While God might be a personal experience, religion is the public airing of the inner drama. So for many the idea of “salvation” comes up. There is motivation to convert everyone to their view or act on behalf of all mankind. We see a new phrase creeping into society, “oh but they aren’t real Christians or Muslims etc. etc.” It is evident that even pious people are starting to see the way religions are beginning to fray at the edges.
 
My GF is just as opposed to organised religion as I am, despite being a neo-pagan type. I think many in Britain today are anti-religious but pro-"spiritual". The problem is that any system of belief larger than one person tends toward organisation and the heirarchical structure, dogma and schism that plagues Xtianity et al. So a lot of new-age types might find themselves part of a burgeoning organised religion that is becoming that which they objected to in the first place - same rule10, different century.

This is why you could see the apathetic thousands who mark themselves "CofE" on forms in England and Wales as a bigger threat to organised christianity than us atheists. The more people who only notionally believe in Yahweh and only go to church for births marriages and deaths, the fewer to go round annoying the rest of us :) Then of course you have the "other" non-specific spiritual types and then again the agnostics, both groups being even further removed from the "system".
 
ponderingturtle said:
"To criticize organized religion in general(note this is not religious belief but the social organization of religion) does someone need to be an atheist?"
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No, many of us of the Christian faith believe that to institutionalize faith of any kind is to compartmentalize that faith and minimize its value, especially to the community at large.


ponderingturtle said:
"Why do people so readily assume atheism when people make comments against organized religion?"
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THIS IS JUST A GUESS: (1) People who regularly attend a religious service fear losing peer-group acceptance that would come from speaking out against religious institutions in general, and specifically the institution they attend, so they don't speak out like they ought to. Thus, (2) the only people who get heard are "outsiders" like atheists and the public media.


ponderingturtle said:
"I have just noticed that attacks on religion here often get confused with attacks on belief. One is a social organization and one is a belief, so I don't get why they are so readily confused."
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Faith and religion are two different things. Faith is the belief in things that can not be proven, while religion is the social/political expression of that faith. I don't understand how the two can be confused, unless it's because [opinion] the majority of the people who are members of a religious institution worship their religion, and not the object of their faith. [/opinion]
 
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I've met a lot of intelligent people with faith but opposed to organized religion. However, it seems reasonable to assume on this forum when one has no other information that when someone criticizes organized religion, they are atheist, because there are so many atheists on this forum.
 
I am a Wiccan, but I criticize organized religion.

Then again, Wicca generally isn't very well organized.
 
ponderingturtle said:
To criticize organized religion in general(note this is not religious belief but the social organization of religion) does someone need to be an atheist?

Why do people so readily assume atheism when people make comments against organized religion?

I have just noticed that attacks on religion here often get confused with attacks on belief. One is a social organization and one is a belief, so I don't get why they are so readily confused.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I don't get it. Organized religion is organized to promote religion. Sure they have fund raisers and bingo, and some people only come for bingo, but are you seriously suggesting the dominating theme is not a belief in a god?

If everyone prayed to their beliefs at home and didn't wear their religion on any sleeve, then there would be no need for organized religion.

However if you want to see criticism aplenty from other than atheists, subscribe to Americans United. www.au.org
 
Elind said:
Sorry, I don't get it. Organized religion is organized to promote religion. Sure they have fund raisers and bingo, and some people only come for bingo, but are you seriously suggesting the dominating theme is not a belief in a god?
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Ah but not just a god, but a moral system proclaimed from on high with in the church. What is the point in religion if you do not tell people what to do?

If religion stuck solely to issues of the divine you would see no where near the level of condemnation.
 
Seems to me that some who believe in a god are against organised religion, it also seems that many who are in organised religions are against any organised religion that isn't the same organised religion as theirs.
 
I have spoken to several self-identified "Christians" who are not members of any organized sect, and are essentially opposed to them.
Of course, most of these people hold rather odd beliefs, and most "organized" sects would have been uncomfortable having them around...
 
Stitch said:
Seems to me that some who believe in a god are against organised religion, it also seems that many who are in organised religions are against any organised religion that isn't the same organised religion as theirs.
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That's what I was going to say. I'm glad I read the whole thread first.

BTW - I think you could do with a few more 'organised's in there somewhere. :p

To answer the OP - Criticism of organised religion is rarely from atheists.

Atheists (herd cats, herd cats....) haven't recently burnt people at the stake because of which organised religion they belong to or for being a witch (is that organised religion?).

.
 
There's also the opposite way around of course - that anyone who doesn't condemn faith must be religious. Actually I think truethat already said this above...

I think it has something to do with the fact that on a forum, people never really quite explain their whole position on life... so all you get are gut feelings about someone's orientation. It's rational therefore to assume that someone attacking religion will not be religious, and that someone supporting it will be... and unless you specifically say otherwise, that's the way it's going to be perceived.

It's like if someone came on here supporting racial segregation, you'd assume they were a nazi (or at least a fascist), or if someone shows sympathy for collectivist policies then they are assumed to be a communist. In forums, things get polarised to extremes.
 
Reinhard said:
There's also the opposite way around of course - that anyone who doesn't condemn faith must be religious. Actually I think truethat already said this above...

I think it has something to do with the fact that on a forum, people never really quite explain their whole position on life... so all you get are gut feelings about someone's orientation. It's rational therefore to assume that someone attacking religion will not be religious, and that someone supporting it will be... and unless you specifically say otherwise, that's the way it's going to be perceived.

It's like if someone came on here supporting racial segregation, you'd assume they were a nazi (or at least a fascist), or if someone shows sympathy for collectivist policies then they are assumed to be a communist. In forums, things get polarised to extremes.
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What are you? Some kind of Nobel Peace prize campaigner! :wackyrealmad:



Well said by the way.
 
Reinhard said:
There's also the opposite way around of course - that anyone who doesn't condemn faith must be religious. Actually I think truethat already said this above...
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And here is the exact problem, this thread is about religion not faith. The point is that your stance on religion does not absolutely correlate to your individual faith.

You are intentionally muddying the waters here.
 
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