One before four and one after two

[Pauliesonne]

Now, that you've noticed the thread, I've recently been wondering if science has ever recorded the supposed three hours of darkness at the crucification of Jesus?

 

[Piscivore]

There are so many things wrong with that I do not know where to start.

Try looking on the shelf next to the depostitions of the hobbits that witnessed the scouring of the Shire.

 

[ChristineR]

No, although people have attemped to find these hours, as well as the earthquake. It was a popular hobby among the early Christian apologists, who didn't really understand eclipses.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Not only have they recorded it, but I will sell you a tape of their recording of the three hours of darkness for 29.95USD (plus S&H)! You can get the DVD with deleted scenes (over 45 more minutes of darkness!!) for only ten dollars more.

PM me for details.

 

[This Guy]

There's a quote by someone. The quote talks about what appears to be an eclipse. I've seen it referenced as talking about the death of Jesus. And it may not be an actual quote, but more a comment on what the other person said.

My mind is drawing a blank on whom was quoting whom. I know one of the names is something like Africanus, or something close.

Can anyone help my feeble mind on this?

 

[Dr Adequate]

Concerning each of his deeds and his cures, both of bodies and souls, and the secrets of his knowledge, and his Resurrection from the dead, this has been explained with complete adequacy by his disciples and the apostles before us. A most terrible darkness fell over all the world, the rocks were torn apart by an earthquake, and many places both in Judaea and the rest of the world were thrown down.

In the third book of his Histories, Thallos dismisses this darkness as a solar eclipse. In my opinion, this is nonsense. *

This is from George Syncellus, quoting, he says, Julius Africanus.

So this is what George Syncellus (9th century) tells us that Julius Africanus (3rd century) tells us that Thallus (any time between the mid 1st and late 2nd century --- first mentioned c. 180 AD) says about this darkness, namely that it was an eclipse.

Neither the Chronography of Africanus nor the Histories of Thallus is still extant.

 

[Kopji]

Actually, this event also described in the Book of Mormon. So there you go, more evidence that it actually happened.

 

[ChristineR]

If there was such a darkness, it could not have been an ecllipse. The cruxifiction took place during Passover = full moon = no ecllipses. Of course you can go all over the place with "what ifs..." here, but you might as well say that it was a miraculous event.

 

[This Guy]

This is from George Syncellus, quoting, he says, Julius Africanus.

So this is what George Syncellus (9th century) tells us that Julius Africanus (3rd century) tells us that Thallus (any time between the mid 1st and late 2nd century --- first mentioned c. 180 AD) says about this darkness, namely that it was an eclipse.

Neither the Chronography of Africanus nor the Histories of Thallus is still extant.

That the one!

Thanks!

That's actually more information than I had been able to find. The info I had read before was VERY scarce on detail. Just a mention that something was said. There wasn't even enough mention of details to be sure either was talking about the death of Jesus. At least it appears that Africanus was, whether Thallus was or not.

 

[Pauliesonne]

and if I remember rightly, it is simple enough to calculate if there was an eclipse in palestine during 30-33 CE. So if there was an eclipse I'm sure everyone would make a very big deal about it.

 

[shemp]

Now, that you've noticed the thread, I've recently been wondering if science has ever recorded the supposed three hours of darkness at the crucification of Jesus?

This is like asking if anyone has a video of Santa Claus flying through the sky. The short answer is "NO. It's fiction. Period." Even if someone could prove that there was an eclipse of the sun in palestine sometime in those years, it still proves NOTHING. Period.

 

[Dr Adequate]

and if I remember rightly, it is simple enough to calculate if there was an eclipse in palestine during 30-33 CE. So if there was an eclipse I'm sure everyone would make a very big deal about it.

Remember, those wishing to uphold the Bible need there not to have been a solar eclipse. If there was, then Thallus' account is correct and Julius Africanus (and, by implication, the Bible) have exaggerated and mythologized a perfectly natural event.

I don't think "simple" is the right word for the calculations. Maybe I should PM the Bad Astronomer.

Nor do I agree with your time-frame. Assuming the birth narrative to be accurate (now there's an assumption) then Jesus was not born in 1 AD. And when (IRRC) the Gospel of John puts Jesus at 30 when he starts his ministry, is that meant to be exact, or is that like pi being 3?

 

[Nettles]

If there was such a darkness, it could not have been an ecllipse. The cruxifiction took place during Passover = full moon = no ecllipses. Of course you can go all over the place with "what ifs..." here, but you might as well say that it was a miraculous event.

The first day of Passover is the full moon. It's a seven-day holiday, however.

How about a good, thick thunderhead?

How about a volcanic eruption? An ash cloud could make it dark.

I vote that the sun was blotted out by the Hand of God. It's just as good as trying to conveniently schedule a solar eclipse. Of course, dear old Velikovsky could suggest some planetary event ...

 

[Dr Adequate]

If there was such a darkness, it could not have been an ecllipse. The cruxifiction took place during Passover = full moon = no ecllipses.

Yes, but we don't know exactly what Thallus says, that's the problem. It is not Thallus, but Julius Africanus who (a) links Thallus' report to the Bible account because it involves darkness in daytime (b) says that Thallus must have been wrong about it being an eclipse because it contradicts the Bible account.

 

[This Guy]

Been looking around for more info on Thallus. I've found very little so far.

One bit is from an atheist source, so of course comes to an atheist conclusion. However, it does give some good information on the quality of the quote listed above. Obviously, I can't speak for the accuracy of the information, but I'll offer the link for those interested

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html

Here's one Christian view of the issue -

http://christcome.net/Fatima/Thallos.htm - No comment.

And, just because I found it, something from our friend JP Holding on the matter (Enjoy ;-)

http://www.tektonics.org/qt/thallcomp.html

This actually is a comparison of Richard Carrier's view (first link above) with that of Glenn Miller, a Christian. I've only skimmed this so far, so no opinion yet.

While I still want to look a bit deeper into this, so far I'm of the opinion that there is no reason to rule out that Thallos may have been commenting on the Gospel accounts, and not something he actually witnessed. I'm not saying that is the case, just that it seems that the information we have on Thallos is so scarce that we can't absolutely say he was even alive at the time of the "event".

This is a good head scratcher though.

 

[Beerina]

IIRC there are no missing times -- certain ancient celestial events are well-recorded in historical documents, and can be retro-calculated as to exactly when they occured. And the time of day (or night) according to records when they were supposed to have occured was on the money, not hours, or days differently.