Objectivism vs Libertarianism vs Rand

IllegalArgument

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This will a bit of a catch all thread.

Since, we seem to have a few people on this forum that are very knowledgeable about Objectivism, something I'm not, I wanted to ask a few questions. Especially, the differences between Objectivism and Libertarianism and their views are Rand.

Starting point, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism_and_Objectivism

What are the key differences between Objectivism and Libertarianism? From the wiki, the main difference appear to be around the, non-aggression principle. Which leads to very different positions on subjects like Iran, Cato against attacking Iran preemptively, Ayn Rand Institute for. Since it's a wiki page on a political topic, skepticism should be the default mode for any fact on the page.

Having said that, did Ayn Rand really say some of the awful, IMHO, things like, "European colonists had a right to seize their land because native tribes did not recognize individual rights"? What do modern Objectivists think of her?
 
First, you have to understand that Objectivism is a philosophy, not a cult. We ARE allowed to disagree with Rand.

As far as Libertarianism is concerned, the issue there is that Libertarianism amounts to the political belief that principle doesn't matter. Anything goes, as long as you're not threatening to shoot someone! Objectivism, however, takes the stand that politics shoudl be based on sound ethical principles. Libertarians often give forums to Communists, socialists, and Objectivists all at the same time, and hold them on an equal moral footing (Dr. Diana Hsieh, for example, has been asked to give lectures at Libertarian conferences where Communist presenters were also giving lectures). Objectivists find such a refusal to differentiate between the groups distasteful at best (say what you will about Objectivism, at least we don't have the blood of tens of millions of people on our hands; Communism, on the other hand, does).

As for Rand's quotes about the natives of the Americas, to a certain extent she was right, but not the extent you (or she, I believe) thought. The issue is that the native population was devistated by plagues--whole villages and cities were wiped out, long before the Europeans got to them. (Under conditions where they WEREN'T wiped out by plague first, they tended to prevent the Europeans from taking charge quite effectively, at least for a long time.) In that sense--meaning, under conditions where the rightful owners are all dead, and it's impossible to determine next of kin--yeah, the Europeans had a right to claim the land. Many Native Americans agreed, which is why they helped the Europeans. And let's be honest, neither side was respectful of the rights of the others--the Europeans weren't saints, but neither were the native tribes. You start raiding someone else's settlement, you don't get to complain when they fight back. Again, I'm not holding the Europeans blameless here, but let's not pretend the natives lived up to the Noble Savage myth.

And she's right that some of the tribe flat-out rejected the concept of individual rights, and behaved in a barbarous fashion that warranted the extermination of those cultures. Not all cultures are worth preserving (if you disagree, please explain why the gang violence in major cities is worth preserving), and Europe has no monopoly on such societies. I can see some justification for sacrificing soldiers (exicution is exicution in my book, and it's a risk soldiers take), but when you start doing so with civilians, rading civilian camps, or engaging in other such activities, you forfet the moral high ground. I'm not saying all of the tribes were like that--and neither did the Europeans. The Irequois Nation served as much as a model for the United States Constitution as the Magna Carta and Athens. What I'm saying is that we can not treat the Native Americans as a homogenous group, any more than we can treat the various nations of any other continent as homogenous. Some of the nations were noble, some vicious; some respected rights, some didn't; some tried to wipe out the Europeans, some tried to trade with them. Each has to be treated as a separate entity, and their actions evaluated according to what THEY did, not what others did.

The United State's police of relocation, indoctrination, and extermination was, of course, a blatant violation of rights and something that should be condemned in the strongest terms. It was a serious error on our part, and I am in no way attempting to say otherwise.
 
Dinwar, I was hoping you would comment.

One more Rand quote, then I'll leave her be, "Palestinians had no rights and that it was moral to support Israel, the sole outpost of civilization in a region ruled by barbarism", was also a controversial position amongst libertarians, who at the time were a large portion of Rand's fan base."

One question about your comment, "Not all cultures are worth preserving". Obviously, I agree that gang rape is horrible, where do you draw the line? How do you "fight" against a culture you consider, not worth preserving? Fight is a loaded word, maybe resist, overcome?
 
IllegalArgument said:
How do you "fight" against a culture you consider, not worth preserving?
Depends on the situation. I consider gang culture to not be worth preserving, and I see no moral issue with having the National Guard wipe them off the face of the Earth. They want to play at being a military organization, so we have every right to take them seriously and treat them as such. Soldiers tend to die. Sucks for them and their families, but that's the job hazard associated with their profession.

Similarly, in WWII the USA was perfectly right to attemt to wipe out the Japanese culture that attacked it (I'm talking from a perspective of immediately post-WWII). The internment camps we created for the Japanese on US soil went too far, of course, but our attacks on Japan--including the nuclear strikes--were perfectly morally justified.

In contrast, while I don't think the aristocratic culture of 18th Century Europe was worth preserving, they didn't exactly warrant (in many cases, at least) violent overthrow. More subtle and less violent methods would suffice in many cases, and violent overthrow had a nasty habit of backfiring (Napolean).

And remember, just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. I see Communism as a cancer that should be eliminated, but a war with Russia would have been just about the stupidest thing the USA could have done post-WWII. Suicide is seldom a viable tactic.

"Palestinians had no rights and that it was moral to support Israel, the sole outpost of civilization in a region ruled by barbarism", was also a controversial position amongst libertarians, who at the time were a large portion of Rand's fan base."
Out of curiosity, where are you getting these quotes from? I have a vague sense of their original source, but it looks like this was you quoting someone who quoted Rand. It's not an issue; mere idle curiosity.

As for the quote, it's right. Islamofacism isn't worth preserving, and Israel, as one of the only countries in the Middle East even attempting to uphold individual rights, stands far above its neighbors in terms of morality. (There are other countries at this point which are on the right track, but not many and none have gone so far down that track.) I'll grant you that they're not perfect, but the fact that they're under a constant state of seige sort of mitigates their sins (many of which amount to attempts to keep enemies who have sworn her destruction out of her). If anything, Israel hasn't gone far enough, in my opinion--if someone shoots rockets at you, I see no reason to allow them to survive. That said, I admit that I'm no expert on the situation over there, and my opinion shouldn't be taken as anything but that: a mere opinion.
 
Libertarianism is a political ideology only. Objectivism includes libertarianism in the political realm, but also atheism, specific views on art, meta-ethics and so on. It is not necessary to endorse all of those things in order to be a libertarian.
 
Out of curiosity, where are you getting these quotes from? I have a vague sense of their original source, but it looks like this was you quoting someone who quoted Rand. It's not an issue; mere idle curiosity.

Both quotes are right from the wiki page in the OP.

That's why I put the disclaimer about their validality.
 
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To any outside observer Objectivism in politics would fall under the libertarian banner.

ALL politics fall under the libertarian banner. That's one of the biggest objections Objectivism has with Libertarianism--as long as you're not openly advocating the immediate use of force, you can claim to be a Libertarian! And only outside observers who have never done any research on the topic (ie, those who hold uninformed opinions) would have such views; Rand, Hsieh, Armstrong, and others have repeatedly demonstrated the differences.

I'm not obligated to agree with those who can't take the time to learn the topic. They are wrong. It's as simple as that.

IllegalArgument said:
Both quotes are right from the wiki page in the OP.
Thanks. :)
 
ALL politics fall under the libertarian banner. That's one of the biggest objections Objectivism has with Libertarianism--as long as you're not openly advocating the immediate use of force, you can claim to be a Libertarian!

No. What more, it is a fringe position in every Western democracy. Even in the US, the Western democracy where it is probably most popular, it is a fringe view.
 
No. What more, it is a fringe position in every Western democracy. Even in the US, the Western democracy where it is probably most popular, it is a fringe view.

Fair enough. But Objectivism certainly doesn't fit with Libertarianism.
 
It really depends on what you mean by Libertarianism, and how you view politics in general. Many of us in the western world view libertarianism as a set of political beliefs between, or otherwise set apart from, the traditional left-right/liberal-conservative dichotomy, but I'd argue against this interpretation, as these terms don't mean quite what they used to. For example, almost everyone in the USA is a liberal, regardless if they identify as a liberal, conservative, or libertarian, which is why the rest of the world calls US conservatives "neo-liberals." To understand this shift, we have to take a look at the history of political philosophy.

Libertarianism is derived from Liberalism, so I think it's important to review the latter in proper historical context. Remember that the political atmosphere of Western Europe before and during the Enlightenment was largely dominated by monarchic empires heavily influenced by the Catholic church. At the same time, merchants had become rather wealthy and powerful, straining the rigid Three Estates hierarchy that dominated "the Middles Ages." Our terms left and right actually come from the bicameral French National Assembly, in which Liberals sat on the left and conservatives--those who wished to conserve the absolute power of the monarchy, the institutionalized privilege of the clergy, and the feudal system of property--on the right. This is why I agree with Quintin Hogg's claim that "[c]onservatism is not so much a philosophy as an attitude": there aren't any concrete tenets, but rather a general desire to conserve current traditions or return to those of the past. Liberals, on the other hand, wanted to limit the powers of government and the church (usually by way of secular, democratic republics), and argued for private property based on the labor theory of property. Many liberal philosophers derived these values from their theological dispositions, arguing that God (the Christian God) had created a state of nature in which humans had natural rights and were given the Earth's resources to use as they pleased.

So if that's Liberalism, what's Libertarianism? Well, the term libertarian was first introduced as the metaphysical concept that an individual is in control of his or her choices (i.e. that people have free will). When this term entered the political scene, it referred to anarchism ("without rulers"), and these terms were rough synonyms for about 100 years. Libertarians were quite allied with liberals due to their common struggle against absolute rule (Frederic Bastiat, a prominent liberal, sat on the same side with Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, the first self-identified anarchist), but essentially took the Liberal tenets to the extreme: instead of limiting government and church power, they wanted to eradicate them; and instead of private property, they sought something they believed more egalitarian, viz. socialism.

As can be seen in the link Humes fork provided, Libertarianism can roughly be divided into left and right factions, and they differ on how they treat unowned resources. The traditional Libertarianism (i.e. anarchism) is associated with the left, whereas right-libertarianism consists of what most USians call libertarianism (sans modifier), as well as Objectivism and anarcho-capitalism. Essentially, the difference is that right-libertarians are capitalists and left-libertarians, socialists (who range from syndicalists and communists, to the more pro-property mutualists, Georgists, and Tuckerite socialists). Most of the disagreement here comes from how one interprets the Lockean proviso given in the labor theory of property. In Locke's Second Treatise of Government, he explains that one can only justly appropriate unowned, natural resources if he or she leaves "as much and as good" for others. Right-libertarians believe capitalism embodies this goal; whereas left-libertarians view private property as a violation thereof.

Here, I've pretty well painted Objectivism as a libertarian ideology, but this isn't quite accurate. It is better viewed as Humes fork stated:

Libertarianism is a political ideology only. Objectivism includes libertarianism in the political realm, but also atheism, specific views on art, meta-ethics and so on. It is not necessary to endorse all of those things in order to be a libertarian.

From my meager understanding of Objectivism, it is very similar to the libertarianism of the American Libertarian Party (i.e. right-libertarianism), meaning they are both essentially liberal ideologies; libertarians of this ilk even frequently don the "classical liberal" label. As I understand it, Objectivists want government, but only insofar as it exists to protect natural rights (which were not granted by God because Objectivism is inherently atheistic). In contrast, right-libertarians are divided as to whether government should exist at all (the minarchist-anarchist debate). I think both favor laissez-faire capitalism, but that's where their overlap ends. As Humes fork stated, whereas right-libertarians are more open (for a lack of a better word) to other opinions, Objectivists tack on additional values, including metaphysical objectivism, physicalism, and moral realism. There are probably more, but I'm not familiar enough with Objectivism to enumerate them all.

TL;DR: What Humes fork said.
 
As far as Libertarianism is concerned, the issue there is that Libertarianism amounts to the political belief that principle doesn't matter. Anything goes, as long as you're not threatening to shoot someone!

Where did you get this? I'm not sure if it's phrased poorly or just completely wrong.

Libertarians often give forums to Communists, socialists, and Objectivists all at the same time, and hold them on an equal moral footing (Dr. Diana Hsieh, for example, has been asked to give lectures at Libertarian conferences where Communist presenters were also giving lectures). Objectivists find such a refusal to differentiate between the groups distasteful at best (say what you will about Objectivism, at least we don't have the blood of tens of millions of people on our hands; Communism, on the other hand, does).

You are correct regarding a wider audience for libertarians, but I have to object to equating communism with Marxism. Communism can be a libertarian ideology, but isn't necessarily. This is most clearly exemplified by the International Workingmen's Association, a socialist organization that experienced a schism between the libertarians, represented by Mikhail Bakunin, and the authoritarians, represented by Karl Marx. Communist anarchists also "don't have the blood of tens of millions of people" on their hands, so I think it's rather unfair to make such a crude generalization.
 
Merton said:
Where did you get this? I'm not sure if it's phrased poorly or just completely wrong.
It's an allusion to standard Objectivist arguments.

I have provided the current folks making such arguments. Ayn Rand also made them. In short, anyone who thinks Objectivism and Libertarianism don't conflict doesn't understand at least one of the sides. Since you understand Libertarianism, it's not unfair to conclude that you don't understand the Objectivist side. No offense intended; I just somehow doubt you've done any in-depth research on the point. And you are arguing from a Libertarian perspective, something that Objectivists most emphatically DO NOT agree with.

Here's a brief summary of the issues, written by an Objectivist philosopher (with a PhD in the field from a nationally accredited university with no ties to [and some hostility towards] Objectivism; I only mention this so that she isn't dismissed as irrelevant, which has happened before on these forums). She's also directly experienced the clash between Libertarian and Objecitivist thinking.

As for the Communist thing, the fact that I call myself an Objectivist should be sufficient to demonstrate that I disagree. They may not have done the killing, but they certainly advocated arguments that inevitably lead to it.
 
Objectivism includes ... specific views on art,

I wasn't familiar with this part, so I googled it and read two articles on Objectivism and art. And I still don't get it at all. Can someone summarize the implications of the Objectivist view here?
 
It's an allusion to standard Objectivist arguments.

Hmm... I guess I was just expecting a less blatantly biased comparison of these ideologies. My bad.

I have provided the current folks making such arguments. Ayn Rand also made them. In short, anyone who thinks Objectivism and Libertarianism don't conflict doesn't understand at least one of the sides. Since you understand Libertarianism, it's not unfair to conclude that you don't understand the Objectivist side. No offense intended; I just somehow doubt you've done any in-depth research on the point. And you are arguing from a Libertarian perspective, something that Objectivists most emphatically DO NOT agree with.

I'm not arguing anything; I merely presented the similarities and differences between various political philosophies. Hell! A lot of my post dealt with just the conflicts among self-identified libertarians. Very little of it dealt with Objectivism, and I made it clear that I am not familiar enough with Objectivism to make more than the superficial comparison I did. So, offense intended, maybe you should read what the **** I write before you reply.

As for the Communist thing, the fact that I call myself an Objectivist should be sufficient to demonstrate that I disagree. They may not have done the killing, but they certainly advocated arguments that inevitably lead to it.

It really isn't. How does Objectivism justify condemning libertarians for the atrocities of authoritarians?
 
Dinwar said:
I consider gang culture to not be worth preserving, and I see no moral issue with having the National Guard wipe them off the face of the Earth.

(snip)

Similarly, in WWII the USA was perfectly right to attemt to wipe out the Japanese culture that attacked it (I'm talking from a perspective of immediately post-WWII). The internment camps we created for the Japanese on US soil went too far, of course, but our attacks on Japan--including the nuclear strikes--were perfectly morally justified.
Wait a minute... I thought there used to be a non-initiation of force principle. How is it "perfectly morally justified" to kill large numbers of people for -- by accident of birth -- being part of a culture, without themselves being initiators of force? This sort of collective punishment doesn't treat people as individuals, and therefore violates their individual rights.

... but when you start doing so with civilians, rading civilian camps, or engaging in other such activities, you forfet the moral high ground.
How about atombombing cities full of civilians? It seems to me that you claim the same sort of behaviour "forfeits the moral high ground" in one post, and in another that it is "perfectly morally justified".

They may not have done the killing, but they certainly advocated arguments that inevitably lead to it.
Arguments do not inevitably lead to killing, and you have yourself advocated some arguments to justify killing.
 
Merton said:
How does Objectivism justify condemning libertarians for the atrocities of authoritarians?
Huh? Where did this come from? I was discussing Communism, not Libertarianism.

Earthborn said:
How is it "perfectly morally justified" to kill large numbers of people for -- by accident of birth -- being part of a culture, without themselves being initiators of force?
So you are of the opinion that armies form spontaneously? That's pretty much the only argument that can support this idea.

A force large enough to wage a serious war requires a certain amount of cultural inertia. Armies need supplies, from food to clothing to weapons to R&D. Armies need paid, and pretty much ever since Rome stopped using armies as contractors that's meant taxes. Armies need support from home, because they have a habit of losing people and those people need replenished. Armies are, in short, tied to the culture and society that spawned them, and the culture and society that spawned them are a necessary component of the army. They are the first links in the supply line.

No, the individuals may not have thrown the first punch--or any. But they contributed in time and materials to the army slaughtering people who's only crime was to have resources Japan wanted. The farmers growing grain for the army are every bit as much a part of the war as the soldiers on the battlefield.

If they were working to overthrow the government that caused such actions to happen, that'd be different--it still wouldn't be our obligation to keep them safe, but they wouldn't be actual enemies. THAT is where you're wrong about individualism: it's each individual's choice to support or oppose the governments who initiate force, and the people we bombed chose to support them.

We also warned them. We dropped fliers saying "We are going to wipe this city off the face of the Earth. If you want to live, leave." Cities house all sorts of military necessities, even without people--factories, resources, plans, etc. That's what we were aiming for.

How about atombombing cities full of civilians? It seems to me that you claim the same sort of behaviour "forfeits the moral high ground" in one post, and in another that it is "perfectly morally justified".
You're ignoring the difference between war and peace.

Arguments do not inevitably lead to killing,
Perhaps not, but certain ideas do.

and you have yourself advocated some arguments to justify killing.
Yes. I've made far better arguments for killing, and for killing in far more grusome manners. I'm not against killing; I'm against killing innocent people. I am perfectly aware that some of my ideas can lead to me having blood on my hands--far more than you, because I've actually been in situations where that was a very real possibility. That said, until you find a way to justify allowing someone to murder my siblings, I'll stand by my choices.

IMST said:
Can someone summarize the implications of the Objectivist view here?
I'm no expert on O'ist aesthetics; I tend to focus on ethics and epistemology. However, as I understand it, O'ism argues that art is the selective recreation of reality. That act of selecting what to recreate shows the artist's values. Anything that makes no attempt to recreate reality is, by definition, not art--so most "modern art" fails. In most artworks O'ists feel that humans are the most important aspect--I've heard it said that there is no metaphysical statement made by a sculpture of a dog (though owning a shepherd I find that hard to accept). They argue that art shows humanity's place in the world, and great art shows us humanity as it can and aught to be.
 
Huh? Where did this come from? I was discussing Communism, not Libertarianism.

I've already explained this:

You are correct regarding a wider audience for libertarians, but I have to object to equating communism with Marxism. Communism can be a libertarian ideology, but isn't necessarily. This is most clearly exemplified by the International Workingmen's Association, a socialist organization that experienced a schism between the libertarians, represented by Mikhail Bakunin, and the authoritarians, represented by Karl Marx. Communist anarchists also "don't have the blood of tens of millions of people" on their hands, so I think it's rather unfair to make such a crude generalization.

What you're referring to as "Communism" is Marxism, which isn't really communism at all. Communism is a stateless and moneyless society, but there are different ways to work toward this. Marxism is purported to achieve communism through a strong government, led by a vanguard party, that centrally plans the economy, hence why it's the authoritarian side of communism. Communist anarchists, on the other hand, disavow this intermediary step and seek a communist society immediately after the revolutionary destruction of the current nation-state.

To reiterate, the "Communists" you decry are Marxists, not communist anarchists. Marxists "have the blood of tens of millions of people on [their] hands", not "Communists." Do not blame communist anarchists (libertarians) for the actions of Marxists (authoritarians).
 
I'm no expert on O'ist aesthetics; I tend to focus on ethics and epistemology. However, as I understand it, O'ism argues that art is the selective recreation of reality. That act of selecting what to recreate shows the artist's values. Anything that makes no attempt to recreate reality is, by definition, not art--so most "modern art" fails. In most artworks O'ists feel that humans are the most important aspect--I've heard it said that there is no metaphysical statement made by a sculpture of a dog (though owning a shepherd I find that hard to accept). They argue that art shows humanity's place in the world, and great art shows us humanity as it can and aught to be.

So, "Objectivist art" basically amounts to the subcategory of art known as social realism?
 

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