Nuclear Power Stations - Yes or No

lionking

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Although this thread is prompted by the reaction (I was going to say fallout :)) to the recent rejection of the Australian Emissions Trading Scheme, and the kneejerk reaction of the government and the greens to refuse to even discuss nuclear power, it raises a wider issue.

If you were in charge of a nation with ample coal supplies (centuries worth) but also a good proportion of the world's uranium, would you at least examine and evaluate the use of nuclear power? If not, why not?

By way of background, Australia has no nuclear power station, minor hydroelectric power and a few gas power stations, but heaps of coal fired stations. The aussie Greens take on the issue: http://greens.org.au/node/787

The government's position: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/r...-nuclear-group-to-bale-out-20090824-ewla.html
 
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Where's the poll? I'd vote "yes" if there was one.
 
Yes. The only serious issue is that nuclear power plants cost a buttload to build. Nuke plants are a lot greener than coal plants.
 
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Where's the poll? I'd vote "yes" if there was one.
Two reasons. I haven't discovered how to set up a poll and I can't be bothered learning. I also thought with only two choices it wasn't too hard to post "yes" or "no", and preferably with a reason.
 
Yes.

I was watching an advertisement for the coal industry recently -- in PA, there are a ton of them -- and they've got this succession of people, workers, kids, people on the street, etc, extolling the virtues of coal. And this one guy is making this big deal about how we have enough coal to last 150 years.

Now, I'm sure there's actually more than that, but that was their argument. 150 years? Is anyone really so short-sighted to think that's a solid foundation for the future? Let's leave something for the next wave of humanity to rebuild civilization with, eh? :)
 
Yes. I want a nuclear plant where I live. Well, not right where I live, as it is a terrible site for a plant. There are some pretty good locations within thirty miles though.
 
I don't know.

When I was just a slip of a lad (early 80s), I voted for the nuclear disarmament party. The China Syndrome still clear in my mind - Jack Lemmon shot for overreaching the whistleblowing protection laws.
Chernobyl shows what might happen when badly managed.

On the plus side
Clean and efficient
Sufficient resources
Pretty good regulatory bodies in Australia.

Honestly - I need to know more.
 
I don't know.

When I was just a slip of a lad (early 80s), I voted for the nuclear disarmament party. The China Syndrome still clear in my mind - Jack Lemmon shot for overreaching the whistleblowing protection laws.
Chernobyl shows what might happen when badly managed.

On the plus side
Clean and efficient
Sufficient resources
Pretty good regulatory bodies in Australia.

Honestly - I need to know more.

I understand your position, but really get annoyed when Chernobyl is brought up. If a poorly maintained car, 40 years old and driven by someone incompetent, breaks an axle and slams into a bus stop killing 20 people, would there be demands to ban all cars? Because this is what Chernobyl was. An accident waiting to happen. Is there any evidence of other Chernobyls out there? I don't think so, but even if there were one or two, would that negate the benefits of nuclear energy?
 
Produces nuclear waste that costs lots of money:
Radioactive waste is a waste product containing radioactive material. It is usually the product of a nuclear process such as nuclear fission. However, industries not directly connected to the nuclear industry may produce quantities of radioactive waste. The majority of radioactive waste is "low-level waste", meaning it contains low levels of radioactivity per mass or volume. This type of waste often consists of used protective clothing, which is only lightly contaminated but still dangerous in case of radioactive contamination of a human body through ingestion, inhalation, absorption, or injection.

The issue of disposal methods for nuclear waste was one of the most pressing current problems the international nuclear industry faced when trying to establish a long term energy production plan, yet there was hope it could be safely solved. A report giving the Nuclear Industry's perspective on this problem is presented in a document from the IAEA (The International Atomic Energy Agency) published in October 2007. It summarizes the current state of scientific knowledge on whether waste could find its way from a deep burial facility back to soil and drinking water and threaten the health of human beings and other forms of life. In the United States, DOE acknowledges progress in addressing the waste problems of the industry, and successful remediation of some contaminated sites, yet some uncertainty and complications in handling the issue properly, cost effectively, and in the projected time frame.[1] In other countries with lower ability or will to maintain environmental integrity the issue would be even more problematic.

In the United States alone, the Department of Energy states there are "millions of gallons of radioactive waste" as well as "thousands of tons of spent nuclear fuel and material" and also "huge quantities of contaminated soil and water."[1] Despite copious quantities of waste, the DOE has stated a goal of cleaning all presently contaminated sites successfully by 2025.[1] The Fernald, Ohio site for example had "31 million pounds of uranium product", "2.5 billion pounds of waste", "2.75 million cubic yards of contaminated soil and debris", and a "223 acre portion of the underlying Great Miami Aquifer had uranium levels above drinking standards."[1] The United States has at least 108 sites designated as areas that are contaminated and unusable, sometimes many thousands of acres.[1][2] DOE wishes to clean or mitigate many or all by 2025, however the task can be difficult and it acknowledges that some may never be completely remediated. In just one of these 108 larger designations, Oak Ridge National Laboratory, there were for example at least "167 known contaminant release sites" in one of the three subdivisions of the 37,000-acre (150 km2) site.[1] Some of the U.S. sites were smaller in nature, however, cleanup issues were simpler to address, and DOE has successfully completed cleanup, or at least closure, of several sites.[1]

Claims exist that the problems of nuclear waste do not come anywhere close to approaching the problems of fossil fuel waste.[3][4] A 2004 article from the BBC states: "The World Health Organization (WHO) says 3 million people are killed worldwide by outdoor air pollution annually from vehicles and industrial emissions, and 1.6 million indoors through using solid fuel."[5] In the U.S. alone, fossil fuel waste has been linked to the death of 20,000 people each year.[6] A coal power plant releases 100 times as much radiation as a nuclear power plant of the same wattage.[7] It is estimated that during 1982, US coal burning released 155 times as much radioactivity into the atmosphere as the Three Mile Island accident.[8]

The World Nuclear Association provides a comparison of deaths due to accidents among different forms of energy production. In their comparison, deaths per TW-yr of electricity produced from 1970 to 1992 are quoted as 885 for hydropower, 342 for coal, 85 for natural gas, and 8 for nuclear.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste

So at best I have mixed reasons that have me undecided on the issue.
 
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Plant designs are pretty safe anymore. Chernbyl was bad plant design that no reasonable regulatory body would allow to be built again. Three Mile Island was human error -- the plant instruments were fine, but Homer Simpson or whoever was in charge that day didn't believe them. I hope they've found a way to prevent that. :)

The only thing that bothers me about nuclear power is what a bomb might do to it. Sure, the reaction will shut down, but a containment system that has been blown up doesn't work.
 
I understand your position, but really get annoyed when Chernobyl is brought up. If a poorly maintained car, 40 years old and driven by someone incompetent, breaks an axle and slams into a bus stop killing 20 people, would there be demands to ban all cars? Because this is what Chernobyl was. An accident waiting to happen. Is there any evidence of other Chernobyls out there? I don't think so, but even if there were one or two, would that negate the benefits of nuclear energy?

I agree with you. That's why I said "when badly managed". I admit too that I am really ignorant on this. Once upon a time, for any policitcal party to espouse the virtues of nuclear would have been tantamount to suicide. Times change, as does technology and attitudes. And who knows what the future holds? Including my opinion on this one.

Cheers
 
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Yes.

Partly because the coal we use to make electricity is really, really crap, but mostly because then we would have a reason to enrich it domestically.

Considering that the last Government kept going on and on and on about "control" of what happens to the uranium, it always struck me as strange that we ship the uranium to Canada to be enriched and would be sent to China from there.
 
How much of that cost is overcoming legal challenges by the anti-nuke people?

I can't imagine it costing more than a pathetically tiny portion of the overall cost.

According to this a nuke plant cost about $2.4 billion in 1988.

An average lawyer (in today's money) costs about $200 an hour. If 20 lawyers worked for 10 years (40 hours a week), that would equal just under 3.5% of the total cost.


Clearly I'm overestimating. That's 1988 plant being charged at 2009 rates for a giant legal team working full time for a full decade.
 
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How much of that cost is overcoming legal challenges by the anti-nuke people?

Almost none.

Ask 'how much of the cost is refining uranium through a ridiculously time consuming and expensive process of gas centrifuges that has only recently been somewhat supplanted' and you'd be closer to the mark.

It's a great strawman, but refining uranium is TOUGH. Really tough.

Nuclear is a good source of power, but there's been a tendency for certain political ends of the spectrum to whitewash the difficulties of nuclear power, especially when the intial plants were being constructed, and pretend they were all due to 'crazy environmentalists.' In fact, many failed on their own 'merits.' That kinda ruins the 'holy grail' narrative that's being built though.
 
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Almost none.

Ask 'how much of the cost is refining uranium through a ridiculously time consuming and expensive process of gas centrifuges that has only recently been somewhat supplanted' and you'd be closer to the mark.

It's a great strawman, but refining uranium is TOUGH. Really tough.

Nuclear is a good source of power, but there's been a tendency for certain political ends of the spectrum to whitewash the difficulties of nuclear power, especially when the intial plants were being constructed, and pretend they were all due to 'crazy environmentalists.' In fact, many failed on their own 'merits.' That kinda ruins the 'holy grail' narrative that's being built though.

If they come back into vogue in the way I expect them to, there might be some economies of scale to be had. The way coal is being pushed where I live, the industry seems really scared.
 
WildCat said:
How much of that cost is overcoming legal challenges by the anti-nuke people?

I can't imagine it costing more than a pathetically tiny portion of the overall cost.

According to this a nuke plant cost about $2.4 billion in 1988.

An average lawyer (in today's money) costs about $200 an hour. If 20 lawyers worked for 10 years (40 hours a week), that would equal just under 3.5% of the total cost.


Clearly I'm overestimating. That's 1988 plant being charged at 2009 rates for a giant legal team working full time for a full decade.

Almost none.

Aw come on. Don't you have an over the top example to give like me?
 
If they come back into vogue in the way I expect them to, there might be some economies of scale to be had. The way coal is being pushed where I live, the industry seems really scared.

Nuclear already has "economies of scale".

Going to the SMH article:
...it would be at least 14 years before a plant could be built.

This is because the demand for nuclear power has accelerated worldwide and there is a growing waiting list for the equipment to build a reactor.

What the people who are lobbying for nuclear plants want is not just relaxed regulation (aka safety standards), they are looking for a government handout.

Nuclear power is said to have one of the lowest power generation costs. If this is truly the case why in the world is the nuclear lobby needing any government assistance?

On a global scale (as it relates to AGW) nuclear is not an issue because its demand is already exceeding supply, as evident in the long wait times for equipment.
 

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