Antonio Alejandro
Student
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Am I not perceiving the computer? I require my senses to type onto a computer.
Nothing exist until after we perceive it
- Thread starter Antonio Alejandro
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Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Then where did "we" come from if we did not exist until "we" perceived ourselves?Antonio Alejandro said:
edited to add:
And what is the source of this knowledge?
Here's an experiment I would like those who claim this to participate in. Let's take Shirley MacLaine, one of the more prominent people who claim this. Let's choose a suicidal person, too, and call him Bill.
Shirley and Bill are standing in a field, a few yards apart. Bill is facing her, she is standing with her back to Bill. Unknown to her, Bill picks up a brick, and throw it at her.
Bill knows that the brick is flying towards her, so the brick exists, because Bill thinks of it, and is aware of it. To Shirley, the brick does not exist, because she doesn't know it does.
Before the brick hits Shirley, Bill shoots himself in the head, and is dead instantly. Bill stops thinking about the brick. Ergo, according to Shirley's claim, the brick ceases to exist.
Is Shirley going to be hit by a brick or not?
Shirley and Bill are standing in a field, a few yards apart. Bill is facing her, she is standing with her back to Bill. Unknown to her, Bill picks up a brick, and throw it at her.
Bill knows that the brick is flying towards her, so the brick exists, because Bill thinks of it, and is aware of it. To Shirley, the brick does not exist, because she doesn't know it does.
Before the brick hits Shirley, Bill shoots himself in the head, and is dead instantly. Bill stops thinking about the brick. Ergo, according to Shirley's claim, the brick ceases to exist.
Is Shirley going to be hit by a brick or not?
Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Nap, interrupted.
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I know, I know! Not only does the brick disappear, but so does Shirley, because she was only a figment of Bill's imagination. Shirley MacLaine is gone. Praise Bill!
~~ Paul
~~ Paul
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
But if Bill is dea....*poof*
Earthborn
Terrestrial Intelligence
I agree with what you are trying to say here, but I don't agree that it is a very good example. There is no way Bill can shoot himself and die in the short time it takes for the brick for hit Shirley. Someone cannot die instantly: it is a process that takes some time, in this case about 20 seconds or so, after the shot was fired.CFLarsen said:
The real problem with this idea that things do not exist before we perceive them, is this: how can we perceive something that does not exist yet?
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
True. One wonders if Antonio is a solipsist. It doesn't answer the question, but that seems to be where he's heading.Earthborn said:
Doubt
Philosopher
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Earthborn said:
OK, so we modify the scenario. Bill puts a bomb in her car that is wired to the ignition. Then Bill goes away and offs himself. She starts the car the next morning and it explodes.
I can think of non-lethal issues as well. Do planets and stars that have not been observed exist? Or what about the limits of perception. We cannot find the “dark mater” that accounts for the apparent mass of the universe. Does that mean that we do or do not perceive this apparent mass since we can observe it’s effect but not the mater itself?
no one in particular
muse
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Since we are only talking about his ability to perceive, maybe we can cut the 20 seconds down a bit. If not, then lets replace “shoots himself in the head” with “crushes his head in a 20,000 ton hydraulic press.”Earthborn said:
roger
Penultimate Amazing
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Other's have dealt with this objection, but the original post specified perceiving as the criteria for existence, not life.Earthborn said:
The bullet will destroy all function in the brain essentially instantly - thus perception will end before the brick hits.
Earthborn said:
The "trigger" could be something that was delayed. Bill could also give Shirley a poisoned drink.
Sure, Bill can die, by shooting his brains out. He is - by all definitions - dead before the brick hits Shirley. Now, what?
Earthborn said:
Unicorns.
Antonio Alejandro
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Brick on the head analogy
I thought a brick hitting you on the head would be a big perception. Ouch!! If the brick is flying thru the air and it is not being perceived, i.e. it is not within the confines of our definition of existence, it does not exist.
Lets say that the detective who shows up at the scene determines that the brick is brown. The detective says: the brick is brown. Color is clearly one of the attributes of existence, of being. Is the brick truly brown? Does the brick have an intrinsic brown color?
To those that answer yes the brick has an intrinsic color brown. Then, can we have a color blind person view it, and he will see it brown?
a frog or a mosquito? Will they see it as brown?
Can someone name a person who sees the absolute color of brown? The argument then typically goes in this manner. Well in the electromagnetic spectrum there is a definite number for brown...so yes ...that is the color brown. But then if this was true then the color blind person, the frog, and the mosquito would be seeing exactly the same color brown. Existence is a human definition and it is bound by a human interpretation of time and space, of duration and dimension.
As the brick is flying thru the air, "something is happening", what is "happening" is clearly not whithin our definition of existence, because the universe is not as we think it is, but as it is. Perhaps the color blind man, the frog, and the mosquito have their own valid definition of existence.
We can only imagine what is happening to the unobserve brick, but what we imagine is not what is.
I thought a brick hitting you on the head would be a big perception. Ouch!! If the brick is flying thru the air and it is not being perceived, i.e. it is not within the confines of our definition of existence, it does not exist.
Lets say that the detective who shows up at the scene determines that the brick is brown. The detective says: the brick is brown. Color is clearly one of the attributes of existence, of being. Is the brick truly brown? Does the brick have an intrinsic brown color?
To those that answer yes the brick has an intrinsic color brown. Then, can we have a color blind person view it, and he will see it brown?
a frog or a mosquito? Will they see it as brown?
Can someone name a person who sees the absolute color of brown? The argument then typically goes in this manner. Well in the electromagnetic spectrum there is a definite number for brown...so yes ...that is the color brown. But then if this was true then the color blind person, the frog, and the mosquito would be seeing exactly the same color brown. Existence is a human definition and it is bound by a human interpretation of time and space, of duration and dimension.
As the brick is flying thru the air, "something is happening", what is "happening" is clearly not whithin our definition of existence, because the universe is not as we think it is, but as it is. Perhaps the color blind man, the frog, and the mosquito have their own valid definition of existence.
We can only imagine what is happening to the unobserve brick, but what we imagine is not what is.
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Re: Brick on the head analogy
Since no one perceives the brink the brink doesn't exist, does it?
But if Bill is dead, who is perceiving the brink? Not Shirley. She doesn't know it's there. Not Bill. He's dead.Antonio Alejandro said:
Since no one perceives the brink the brink doesn't exist, does it?
