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Norway's Humane Prison system- innovation on stilts or a penal catastrophe?

Undesired Walrus

Penultimate Amazing
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It seems we often look toward Norway as an example of how our ideologies work out, whether it is socialists showing how socialism works or right-wing isolationists who tout how being seperate from the EU is favourable.

But who will dare use their prison system to back up their beliefs?

Ten years and 1.5 billion Norwegian kroner ($252 million) in the making, Halden is spread over 75 acres (30 hectares) of gently sloping forest in southeastern Norway. The facility boasts amenities like a sound studio, jogging trails and a freestanding two-bedroom house where inmates can host their families during overnight visits. Unlike many American prisons, the air isn't tinged with the smell of sweat and urine. Instead, the scent of orange sorbet emanates from the "kitchen laboratory" where inmates take cooking courses. "In the Norwegian prison system, there's a focus on human rights and respect," says Are Hoidal, the prison's governor. "We don't see any of this as unusual."

"When they arrive, many of them are in bad shape," Hoidal says, noting that Halden houses drug dealers, murderers and rapists, among others. "We want to build them up, give them confidence through education and work and have them leave as better people." Countries track recidivism rates differently, but even an imperfect comparison suggests the Norwegian model works. Within two years of their release, 20% of Norway's prisoners end up back in jail. In the U.K. and the U.S., the figure hovers between 50% and 60%.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html

Is this brilliance or insanity?
 
It seems we often look toward Norway as an example of how our ideologies work out, whether it is socialists showing how socialism works or right-wing isolationists who tout how being seperate from the EU is favourable.

But who will dare use their prison system to back up their beliefs?


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1986002,00.html

Is this brilliance or insanity?

Offhand, I'd be inclined to say "brilliant" if it does, in fact, substantially reduce recidivism.

The big question, of course, is whether it does reduce recidivism, or whether Norway is simply the sort of society where a much lower baseline recidivism rate would be expected.
 
We'd need more data, first. What were the recidivism rates in older prisons? And are there things that are illegal in the U.S. or U.K. (like drug use) that are not illegal in Norway?

A simple example...in the U.S., draconian drug laws put people who use a little dope behind bars; get caught several times with even minor amounts, and you get major sentences. If this is counted in 'recidivism' stats, and if people in Norway don't face such laws, this could account for at least part of the difference.

However, although I may not agree with everything behind the Norwegian model, I do think there's one important difference. Prisons in Canada and the U.S. are essentially criminal training schools. Someone who goes in on a relatively minor offense faces a system that has very, very strong internal pressures that push them to become more of a criminal...and lots of people there who will teach them how to do it. Organized crime in American prisons is a huge problem, and one that the authorities do little or nothing to deal with.

Any prison system that reduces these negative factors will, in my opinion, have lower recidivism rates.
 
(Opinion piece follows.)

If it works I am all for it.

Sadly in the UK at least it seems that the "public" already think prison is "too soft" (based I bet largely on media misrepresentation of largely exceptional circumstances). I think for the UK there is another issue that has to be tackled to see an improvement in our recidivism rates and that is for many people who end up in jail life in jail is actually better than their life outside. And that does not mean we should make jail worse (it already is a horrendous place judged by the standards most of us enjoy), it means we need to improve society overall.

Also I always feel slightly down heartened by what seems to have happened in the USA. Many folk from the USA do not seem to realise that the USA was the pioneer in prison reform and lead the world for a long time, sadly it now seems to have lost the appetite for tacking reform in the prison system.
 
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We'd need more data, first. What were the recidivism rates in older prisons?

According to this study (in Norwegian), the recidivism rates for the Norwegian prison system in the years from 2003 through 2007 is somewhat more than 10% after one year, barely 20% after two years, about 25% after three years and almost 30% after four years. Halden prison is of course too new for there to be any statistics yet.

Incidentally, the most important factor in determining recidivism appeared to be whether or not people had or found work upon release.
 
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According to this study (in Norwegian), the recidivism rates for the Norwegian prison system is somewhat more than 10% after one year, barely 20% after two years, about 25% after three years and almost 30% after four years.
Let me rephrase the question...did these new prisons result in a measurable decrease in recidivism rates within Norway, as compared to let's say 10 or 20 years ago? Comparison to other countries is not as telling as an internal comparison. For example, if one had two theoretical cultures, one in which the family unit was very important, and family support a key element of the culture...and another where family had little value, and everyone had to fend for themselves...then I think you could expect lower recidivism rates in the former than in the latter, even if using identical prison systems.
 
Let me rephrase the question...did these new prisons result in a measurable decrease in recidivism rates within Norway, as compared to let's say 10 or 20 years ago?

I haven't been able to find any statistics of that online, but I'm not sure how useful they would have been anyway: Norway has changed over the last twenty years too, and how would we determine if any decrease in recidivism was caused by a change in prison regime or by other changes in the Norwegian society?

I suppose the best we can coclude is that Norways' way of doing it seems to work -- at least in Norway -- and that there's little that suggests that a harsher, more penal-focused regime would yield better results.
 
I haven't been able to find any statistics of that online, but I'm not sure how useful they would have been anyway: Norway has changed over the last twenty years too, and how would we determine if any decrease in recidivism was caused by a change in prison regime or by other changes in the Norwegian society?
It'd still likely be a more accurate comparison than a comparison to a country on the other side of the ocean :)
I suppose the best we can coclude is that Norways' way of doing it seems to work -- at least in Norway -- and that there's little that suggests that a harsher, more penal-focused regime would yield better results.
Oh, I agree...as my initial comments on the American prison system should confirm :)
 
Of course, none of the success stories will matter if people take the approach that prison is punishment rather than rehabilitation. Which begs the question, would one wish to live a safer society in which prisoners are not punished (And almost look as if they are rewarded) or a more dangerous society in which prisoners are punished?

It seems a similar question hangs over the head of capital punishment. Even if they realise that it doesn't act as a deterrent, people seem to support it, out of a desire to see 'justice' enacted.
 
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Of course, none of the success stories will matter if people take the approach that prison is punishment rather than rehabilitation. Which begs the question, would one wish to live a safer society in which prisoners are not punished (And almost look as if they are rewarded) or a more dangerous society in which prisoners are punished.

It seems a similar question hangs over the head of capital punishment. Even if they realise that it doesn't act as a deterrent, people seem to support it, out of a desire to see 'justice' enacted.
And this exactly why a prison of this sort will never be built in Australia. Like it or not, punishment trumps rehabilitation.
 
Sounds expensive. How are we going to incarcerate the millions of prisoners here in the USA in such a system without going bankrupt?
 
Of course, none of the success stories will matter if people take the approach that prison is punishment rather than rehabilitation. Which begs the question, would one wish to live a safer society in which prisoners are not punished (And almost look as if they are rewarded) or a more dangerous society in which prisoners are punished?

It seems a similar question hangs over the head of capital punishment. Even if they realise that it doesn't act as a deterrent, people seem to support it, out of a desire to see 'justice' enacted.

Well put - I'm sorry to say at the moment UK society seems firmly of the opinion that punishment is required - no matter whether it is successful at keeping society safe or not.
 
Sounds expensive. How are we going to incarcerate the millions of prisoners here in the USA in such a system without going bankrupt?

Introduce it slowly so your prison numbers start falling?

I actually doubt that it would be more expensive than your current system. Consider if you could reduce the number of crimes that result in jail by 20%, how much would that save? I suspect it is a lot, even just considering the direct costs i.e. police & the legal system costs. And if you then add in the financial costs to society of such crimes I suspect going down the Norwegian route would be a lot cheaper.
 
Sounds expensive. How are we going to incarcerate the millions of prisoners here in the USA in such a system without going bankrupt?
Presumably, if it works as intended by not having to incarcerate them over and over again in the same percentages.
 
Well put - I'm sorry to say at the moment UK society seems firmly of the opinion that punishment is required - no matter whether it is successful at keeping society safe or not.

But do they have a point? Should we punish too (That said, the article does quote someone who regards it as exhausting punishment)?
 
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But do they have a point? Should we punish too?

Personally I believe that being deprived of your freedom is a punishment of itself so even in the Norwegian example I would say there is an element of punishment. From my personal experience from causal discussion with friends and acquaintances it would seem many people don't believe that is punishment enough.

Looking at it rationally: the idea behind prison is to ensure that we all behave as society believes we should do and to prevent society being damaged by people who behave in ways we have decided are wrong. Given that if punishment is not the best way to achieve it then we shouldn't add punishment into the mix because just because we "want" people to be punished. (Don't get me wrong on a personal level I know I would want someone who has caused my loved ones harm to be punished but I at least recognise that "reason" for what it is.)
 
Yes, it's all very difficult.

Being a victim of a very serious crime myself (queue violins) , I don't know how I would feel to see the chap who did it in such a setting. It would feel like such a kick in the teeth. It may take more strength than the strength of recovering from the event itself.

After all, consider the devestation left to the family or community (Let's say Peckham) who don't have what the criminal will experience at this post-modern prison (sound studio, jogging trails, freestanding two-bedroom house where inmates can host their families during overnight visits).
 
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