NORAD Question

[Hyperviolet]

Quick question I have about Military Notification with regard to UA93:




At 09:32am: A radio transmission came from United 93, which was picked up by Cleveland Center as saying:

"Keep remaining seating. We have a bomb on board."

By 09:34am: Word of the hijacking had reached FAA headquarters.





At 09:39am: another transmission was picked up as saying:

"Uh, this is the captain. Would like you all to remain seated. There is a bomb on board and are going back to the airport, and to have our demands [unintelligible]. Please remain quiet."

I've noticed there was first mention of possibly seeking military involvement with UA93 at 09:36am, and again discussed again 13 minutes later at 09:49am, yet NEADS didn't hear of the hijacking till 10:07am, 3 minutes after United 93 crashed in PA.

My question is why was the information not passed onto the military sooner, seen as there was knowledge that a second plane had hit the South Tower of the World Trade Center?
My understanding that FAA/NORAD protocols were not favoured to the events as they unfolded, but I was wondering if anyone had a specific answer to the hesitation with regard to NORAD notification?

Thanks!

 

[OldTigerCub]

I believe that forum member Cheap Shot was working at the Boston Control center when the events were unfolding and has posted some of his accounts on the forum. There was some discussion regarding communication between the FAA and NORAD at this thread that might be informative regarding the question posed in the OP.

 

[gumboot]

NORAD were told of the incident at 0940, and spent the next half hour trying to find fighters to intercept it.

There was only one problem. Two aircraft were in the same airspace, with the same flight profile. They got mixed up. NEADS were told that Delta Airways Flight 1989 had a bomb on board.

This is just one example of an information mix up. This is because there was never an officially established line of communication between NORAD and the FAA. Instead NEADS were receiving information at random from various ARTCCs. Most of their information came from Boston, because a staff member there (Cheap Shot on these forums) took it upon himself to keep them informed. But Cheap Shot could only go by what he was picking up over FAA teleconferences.

So there was a lot of SNAFU and FUBAR going on.

 

[jhunter1163]

That sounds like something the captain would say over the intercom, not to ATC. If he was talking to Cleveland Center, wouldn't he say something like "Cleveland Center, this is UA93, we have a bomb on board?"

Unless, maybe, the hijackers had already killed the pilots, and maybe they keyed the radio by mistake instead of the intercom. But with no identifying info in the transmission and two planes in the area, Gumboot's FUBAR scenario still applies.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

That sounds like something the captain would say over the intercom, not to ATC. If he was talking to Cleveland Center, wouldn't he say something like "Cleveland Center, this is UA93, we have a bomb on board?"

Unless, maybe, the hijackers had already killed the pilots, and maybe they keyed the radio by mistake instead of the intercom. But with no identifying info in the transmission and two planes in the area, Gumboot's FUBAR scenario still applies.

yeah, that was definately the hijackers speaking, not the captain, and yes the theory is they mistakenly put it over the radio instead of the intercom

 

[Hamradioguy]

That sounds like something the captain would say over the intercom, not to ATC. If he was talking to Cleveland Center, wouldn't he say something like "Cleveland Center, this is UA93, we have a bomb on board?"

Unless, maybe, the hijackers had already killed the pilots, and maybe they keyed the radio by mistake instead of the intercom. But with no identifying info in the transmission and two planes in the area, Gumboot's FUBAR scenario still applies.

This apparently is exactly what happened. Someone here may have links to the complete transcripts, but as I recall Cleveland Center was completely taken aback by this transmission and several other aircraft advised Cleveland that they heard the same announcement. Just one more confusing event in a day filled with confusing events.

 

[Hyperviolet]

NORAD were told of the incident at 0940, and spent the next half hour trying to find fighters to intercept it.

There was only one problem. Two aircraft were in the same airspace, with the same flight profile. They got mixed up. NEADS were told that Delta Airways Flight 1989 had a bomb on board.

This is just one example of an information mix up. This is because there was never an officially established line of communication between NORAD and the FAA. Instead NEADS were receiving information at random from various ARTCCs. Most of their information came from Boston, because a staff member there (Cheap Shot on these forums) took it upon himself to keep them informed. But Cheap Shot could only go by what he was picking up over FAA teleconferences.

So there was a lot of SNAFU and FUBAR going on.

Thanks, Gumboot.
From your post I went and found the audio of the Delta 1989 confusion.

It makes more sense now.
Ta!

 

[Blender Head]

How long did Mark Bingham talk with that lady at the FAA (I think it was the FAA)?

 

[Hyperviolet]

How long did Mark Bingham talk with that lady at the FAA (I think it was the FAA)?

That would be Todd Beamer.
The phone call between him and GTE Supervisor, Lisa Jefferson, lasted 13 minutes.

Mark Bingham called his mother.

 

[Blender Head]

That would be Todd Beamer.
The phone call between him and GTE Supervisor, Lisa Jefferson, lasted 13 minutes.

Mark Bingham called his mother.

Damnit, and I chided a CTist for claiming Mark said "Let's Roll!" to NORAD (long, idiotic story don't ask) and now I'm parroting the same ignorance. Thanks for the clarification.

A few questions for you and anyone else:
What's GTE? Was the information passed to anyone at the FAA or NORAD? If so, why did it take so long to send jets to intercept? If not, why not?

I'm JAQing here, so excuse the misinformed tone.

 

[eromitlab]

Well, I can answer the first question. GTE is General Telephone and Electronics, the company that operated the airfones used on the flight. Beamer called an operator at the GTE call center, and Lisa Jefferson was a supervisor that took over the call and spoke with Beamer for 13 minutes after informing the FBI and other agencies of what Beamer had told the operator.

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010922gtenat4p4.asp

 

[Hyperviolet]

Damnit, and I chided a CTist for claiming Mark said "Let's Roll!" to NORAD (long, idiotic story don't ask) and now I'm parroting the same ignorance. Thanks for the clarification.

It's not ignorance at all. A simple mistake.
We all make them.

A few questions for you and anyone else:
What's GTE?

General Telephone & Electronics.
Todd Beamer used his credit card to try to phone his family, his call was redirected to the GTE Supervisor, Lisa Jefferson.

Was the information passed to anyone at the FAA or NORAD?

No. Just the way that Mark Bingham's phone call to his mother was not passed onto NEADS or the FAA.
GTE (basically a phone company) and the Military have no conceivable connection to each other.

Todd was simply trying to make a phone call and Lisa gave moral support at this horrific time.

If so, why did it take so long to send jets to intercept? If not, why not?

Like I said, it wasn't passed because a supervisor at a phone company simply has no connection to the military. The most she could've done was call the police, who would then pass it up the chain of command.

NEADS had their hands full, and as Gumboot said, mistook Delta 1989 for the plane with the bomb (UA93), thus, NEADS wasn't actually informed about a United 93 until 3 minutes after it had crashed in PA.

 

[Alzke]

"...the second manager said he destroyed the tape between December 2001 and January 2002 by crushing the tape with his hand, cutting it into small pieces and depositing the pieces into trash cans around the building, the report said."

This is just one example of an information mix up.

Just one more confusing event in a day filled with confusing events.

FAA Managers Destroyed 9/11 Tapes
Recordings Contained Accounts of Communications With Hijacked Planes
By Sara Kehaulani Goo
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, May 6, 2004; 2:45 PM


Six air traffic controllers provided accounts of their communications with hijacked planes on Sept. 11, 2001, on a tape recording that was later destroyed by Federal Aviation Administration managers, according to a government investigative report issued today.

It is unclear what information was on the tape because no one ever listened to, transcribed or duplicated it, the report by the Department of Transportation inspector general said.

Edited by chillzero: 

Edited for Rule 4

© 2004 The Washington Post Company

 

[Hyperviolet]

Well, that's a nice bit of spam.

Thank you, Alzke.

 

[Reheat]

I just love these long posts full of crap that's irrelevant to the discussion.

As gumboot and others have pointed out time and time again, the US System was not prepared for the 9/11 scenario. Unless sufficient warning had occurred months if not years before the system would still not have been prepared. I think it's a little better now, but there are still ways for an adversary to get through or around the system. It's known as attacking a vulnerability in a surprise attack. If the preparations are good, that usually works very well.

Put yourself in Lisa Jefferson's shoes. Who would you call? Do you have the telephone number for the FBI? How do you get through the voice mail?
Does the FBI have a telephone number for NORAD?

In the cases where the information got to FAA Headquarters, the ball was dropped at there when they failed to notify the NMCC at the Pentagon. That notification didn't happen because the guy who was responsible was on vacation and apparently no one was assigned to replace him. When the calls about subsequent hijackings (after AA11) got to FAA Hqs. no one was taking calls because they were in a conference about a hijacking! That NORAD was able to respond at all is thanks to Colin Scoggins (Cheap Shot) at Boston ARTCC and his work around calls directly to NEADS. Had those calls not happened, NORAD likely would not have had any response at all during the entire morning's events.

Addressing the irrelevant spam from the apparent twoofer; those destroyed tapes are one of the many examples of people CTAing (CYA synonym) not because they were guilty of mass murder or because it was an InSiDe JoOb, but because they wanted to protect their jobs from scrutiny. The evil gubmint was not involved in this, it was the Controller's Union intervening on behalf of the controllers involved doing what Union's do, meddling in an attempt to protect their client's jobs. Good try, but an epic fail.

 

[gumboot]

The ATC tapes were made on the afternoon of 9/11 for the sole purpose of capturing the immediate recollections for six New York ARTCC controllers. The purpose of recording these immediate recollections was so that the controllers could use the tapes to later provide their written testimonies to investigators.

The tapes were made on the understanding that they would be destroyed once the written testimonies were produced, and this is what happened.

It would have been illegal to use the tapes as evidence.

 

[gumboot]

If so, why did it take so long to send jets to intercept? If not, why not?

Put simply, the reason it took NEADS so long to send fighters after UA93/DA89 is because they didn't have any. Staff at NEADS spent about half an hour desperately calling air bases in the North East, trying to find some fighters to intercept the flight.

Delta 1989 actually was intercepted - just as it was landing at Cleveland Airport, and well after Cleveland ARTCC had determined it had not been hijacked.

 

[A-Train]

NORAD were told of the incident at 0940, and spent the next half hour trying to find fighters to intercept it.

There was only one problem. Two aircraft were in the same airspace, with the same flight profile. They got mixed up. NEADS were told that Delta Airways Flight 1989 had a bomb on board.

This is just one example of an information mix up. This is because there was never an officially established line of communication between NORAD and the FAA. Instead NEADS were receiving information at random from various ARTCCs. Most of their information came from Boston, because a staff member there (Cheap Shot on these forums) took it upon himself to keep them informed. But Cheap Shot could only go by what he was picking up over FAA teleconferences.

So there was a lot of SNAFU and FUBAR going on.

The SNAFU and FUBAR is going on inside your own brain. To say there was "never an officially established line of communication between NORAD nand the FAA" is one of the most singularly idiotic statements I have ever heard on this forum, and makes me wonder why anyone would consider you an authority on NORAD.

Of course there is a line of communication between the centers and NORAD. That's what Cheap Shot used to call NEADS numerous times when dealing with the suspicious circumstances involving AAL11 while it was in Boston Center's airspace. Every center has its own military liaison like CS who is thoroughly trained to use his landlines to contact NORAD at a moment's notice. Just ask Mr. Scroggins himself, and he will tell you.

What happened at Cleveland Center, who was handling UAL93, is shrouded in mystery. No one has come forward to give us a complete account-- most especially, not the person assigned to the military desk who was doing the same job as was Cheap Shot at Boston Center. Of course, everything would have been recorded, including the transmission of the pilots as well as the calls to the military; but they have all been withheld from us.

It is absurd to think NEADS could not scramble a fighter because they were confused about UAL93. That plane was being tracked by Cleveland as it was being hijacked and when the transmissions were made from the cockpit. It is simple for ATC to relay to NORAD the exact location of the target, and for a fighter to be scrambled to that location.

That there were no fighters available is equally absurd. We are to believe that NEADS only had four fighters available to defend the whole Northeastern United States from attack? You either have to be very gullible or completely misinformed to fall for that argument-- or both, which happens to be a perfect description of our resident NORAD expert Mr. Gumboot.

 

[Reheat]

The SNAFU and FUBAR is going on inside your own brain. To say there was "never an officially established line of communication between NORAD nand the FAA" is one of the most singularly idiotic statements I have ever heard on this forum, and makes me wonder why anyone would consider you an authority on NORAD.

Before you make a feeble at insulting someone, perhaps you ought to examine your record here. It isn't very pretty with the highlight being the belief that Israeli Commandos escaped via the nose wheel well of a 757/767. That is one of the most singularly idiotic statements in the history of this forum and it makes me wonder why you even show your face on this Forum after that Historic Stundie.

The key word is official. What Cheap Shot did was a short cut within the system. That was not how it was suppose to work for a hijacking. The information was suppose to go via FAA Hqs. to the NMCC, which did not happen. That's why Cheap Shot's actions were commendable. You need to learn to read before you make a feeble attempt to insult someone.

What happened at Cleveland Center, who was handling UAL93, is shrouded in mystery. No one has come forward to give us a complete account-- most especially, not the person assigned to the military desk who was doing the same job as was Cheap Shot at Boston Center. Of course, everything would have been recorded, including the transmission of the pilots as well as the calls to the military; but they have all been withheld from us.

Why is it that you need a personal account. Are you in a position to do anything other than post nonsense on an Internet Forum?

It is absurd to think NEADS could not scramble a fighter because they were confused about UAL93. That plane was being tracked by Cleveland as it was being hijacked and when the transmissions were made from the cockpit. It is simple for ATC to relay to NORAD the exact location of the target, and for a fighter to be scrambled to that location.

They did intercept DE1989 and had them on the way to UA93.

That there were no fighters available is equally absurd. We are to believe that NEADS only had four fighters available to defend the whole Northeastern United States from attack? You either have to be very gullible or completely misinformed to fall for that argument-- or both, which happens to be a perfect description of our resident NORAD expert Mr. Gumboot.

In the North East Sector there were FOUR (4) Fighters on alert. If you know of more then please inform your waiting audience of proof that there were. The lies of your hero DRG are not sufficient.

 

[A-Train]

It isn't very pretty with the highlight being the belief that Israeli Commandos escaped via the nose wheel well of a 757/767. That is one of the most singularly idiotic statements in the history of this forum and it makes me wonder why you even show your face on this Forum after that Historic Stundie.

Gosh, I don't remember ever making such a "statement." Maybe you could refresh my memory by providing us a link to the post in which I made this alleged statement.