Johnny Pneumatic
Master Poster
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2003
- Messages
- 2,088
What are some plants that one can eat that really do produce some chemical that numbs pain, helps with sickness etc. Basically what herbal stuff isn't woo woo?
Non Woo Woo Herbal
- Thread starter Johnny Pneumatic
- Start date
-
- Tags
- herbal medicine
Mojo
Mostly harmless
Anything that actually works.SkepticJ said:
Goshawk
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2003
- Messages
- 1,451
Brown
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2001
- Messages
- 12,984
Don't know if there's anything to this "60 Minutes" report.
Goshawk
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2003
- Messages
- 1,451
SkepticJ, there's a lot of good browsing here.
Most herbal/botanical "stuff" does do *something*, I mean, it's not usually totally biochemically inert, but it doesn't always do what you want it to do. It's not always helpful, is the point. And sometimes it's actually harmful, or even directly toxic.
But I know what you're getting at, like the ginger thing.
Most herbal/botanical "stuff" does do *something*, I mean, it's not usually totally biochemically inert, but it doesn't always do what you want it to do. It's not always helpful, is the point. And sometimes it's actually harmful, or even directly toxic.
But I know what you're getting at, like the ginger thing.
Johnny Pneumatic
Master Poster
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2003
- Messages
- 2,088
scotth said:
Marijuana's bad.-Mr. Mackey
H3LL
Illuminator
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2004
- Messages
- 4,963
Foxgloves contain digitalis, but I wouldn't recommend eating one if you had heart problems.
As I understand it, it is better to take the active ingredient after it has been separated from the source, or unwanted compounds removed (thinking of the cocaine removing plant in New Jersey that makes one of the ingredients for Coca-cola, although not medical as such).
I understood that much (not all) of the pharmaceutical industry is concerned with either synthetic production of active ingredients found in nature (plant or animal) or the extraction of such things.
I'm a little hesitant to consume a whole plant as there maybe other toxins that could be harmful. After all, many compounds in plants are a defence mechanism and control of the dose is extremely difficult.
I remember seeing a documentary about the death of Alexander the Great. It was suspected that he died from incorrect dosage of some herbal root (I forget the name). Getting the dose just right was very important.
I would first try to find out what the active ingredient is in the herb/plant and see if there is a product with a refined dose.
As I understand it, it is better to take the active ingredient after it has been separated from the source, or unwanted compounds removed (thinking of the cocaine removing plant in New Jersey that makes one of the ingredients for Coca-cola, although not medical as such).
I understood that much (not all) of the pharmaceutical industry is concerned with either synthetic production of active ingredients found in nature (plant or animal) or the extraction of such things.
I'm a little hesitant to consume a whole plant as there maybe other toxins that could be harmful. After all, many compounds in plants are a defence mechanism and control of the dose is extremely difficult.
I remember seeing a documentary about the death of Alexander the Great. It was suspected that he died from incorrect dosage of some herbal root (I forget the name). Getting the dose just right was very important.
I would first try to find out what the active ingredient is in the herb/plant and see if there is a product with a refined dose.
Aloe Vera
Bilberry
Echinacea
Garlic
GingkoBiloba
Green Tea
Milk Thistle
Nettle leaf or root
Pau D’arco
Saw Palmetto
St John’s Wort
……. And many others I’ missed out …… but I know these ones have proven effects or have had successful medical trials beating placebos, etc.
Bilberry
Echinacea
Garlic
GingkoBiloba
Green Tea
Milk Thistle
Nettle leaf or root
Pau D’arco
Saw Palmetto
St John’s Wort
……. And many others I’ missed out …… but I know these ones have proven effects or have had successful medical trials beating placebos, etc.
.Mojo
Mostly harmless
I don't consider herbal medicine to be woo woo as much as imprecise. After all, as has already been pointed out, herbs can contain real amounts of real chemicals with real effects.
There may be a few problems though. As H3LL pointed out, because you're dealing with an unrefined product, you don't always know the precise dosage of the active compound, or what else is in it.
There is also the problem that at least some of the people who use herbal medicine are the sort of people who, like Mrs. Mojo, say things like "it's natural so it can't be bad for me," or who don't really look at the evidence for whether or not a particular remedy actually works ("it's been used for thousands of years...").
There may be a few problems though. As H3LL pointed out, because you're dealing with an unrefined product, you don't always know the precise dosage of the active compound, or what else is in it.
There is also the problem that at least some of the people who use herbal medicine are the sort of people who, like Mrs. Mojo, say things like "it's natural so it can't be bad for me," or who don't really look at the evidence for whether or not a particular remedy actually works ("it's been used for thousands of years...").
Mojo
Mostly harmless
When I was a chemistry undergaduate, as far as I can remember (it was rather a long time ago) about half of the final year projects on offer in organic chemistry were simply working out the structure of an unknown chemical, usually isolated from a plant of some sort, and supplied by (and I imagine sponsored by) a pharmaceutical company.H3LL said:
And just because they are 'natural' doesn't mean they do not interact
with any medication you might be on - St John's Wort, used for depression, if taken in combination with the oral contraceptive pill can actually make one MORE depressed! It also makes your skin more light sensitive.
Ginger is a great thing! When I was having chemotherapy I ate crystallised ginger when I actually had the IV in - also had a flask of ginger and lemon tea. I was never sick (vomited) through 8 months of treatment - it might have been a placebo right enough, but who cares!!!!
It's also interesting to me that health store sell herbal supplements for "womens problems" - menopausal symtoms like hot flushes, hair loss, anxiety etc - which are choc FULL of naturally occuring plant oestrogens; things like Evening Primrose Oil, Red Clover, Black Coshosh. Now if you or your family have ANY incidence of certain cancers you should NOT be taking this stuff. SOME tumours feed on the oestrogen i.e are oestrogen positive. Drugs like Tamoxifen actually stop the body producing any which is why being on Tamox is like a 5 year menopause!
Most people selling these supplements seem ignorant of these facts - places like Boots the chemist for example, even Holland and Barrett... Worrying, nes pas?
DeVega
with any medication you might be on - St John's Wort, used for depression, if taken in combination with the oral contraceptive pill can actually make one MORE depressed! It also makes your skin more light sensitive.
Ginger is a great thing! When I was having chemotherapy I ate crystallised ginger when I actually had the IV in - also had a flask of ginger and lemon tea. I was never sick (vomited) through 8 months of treatment - it might have been a placebo right enough, but who cares!!!!
It's also interesting to me that health store sell herbal supplements for "womens problems" - menopausal symtoms like hot flushes, hair loss, anxiety etc - which are choc FULL of naturally occuring plant oestrogens; things like Evening Primrose Oil, Red Clover, Black Coshosh. Now if you or your family have ANY incidence of certain cancers you should NOT be taking this stuff. SOME tumours feed on the oestrogen i.e are oestrogen positive. Drugs like Tamoxifen actually stop the body producing any which is why being on Tamox is like a 5 year menopause!
Most people selling these supplements seem ignorant of these facts - places like Boots the chemist for example, even Holland and Barrett... Worrying, nes pas?
DeVega
H3LL said:
But there are 2 sides to the story. Pharmaceutical companies cannot patent a plant or concentrated plant product, synthetic isolation means it is patentable which means potentially far greater profits. If the isolated active ingredient is still not patentable I'm sure some would prefer to slightly modify it . .....
Personally I'm not opposed to isolation unless, it seems a sensible idea to control dose, I have a bigger problem with slight modification (making something natural in plants structure to sometimes something non existent in nature - greater chance of side effects, perhaps?) ...... however *if* the end product was compared to the highly *concentrated* plant source extract in the trials I would not complain (but by law are they required to do so?)
Essential to health vitamins and minerals fall into that category too, yet these aren't patentable either ....... how many pharmaceutical companies sell vitamins/mineral? Not many AFAIK. Is there any bias against using these in very highly concentrated dose rather than pantented medicinal drugs? I think so. The recommended daily amount (RDA) is the amount advised in diets to prevent disease ..... at higher doses vitamins/minerals can have some therapeutic effects, rather than just preventative of deficiency........
.....Now this is where the debate gets complex ........... some pharmaceutical company representatives have been campaigning (EU directives etc.) for vitamin/minerals/ herbs to be reclassified as 'drugs', they claim for public safety, however others claim it is to destroy the competition. Only pharmaceutical companies could afford the safety trials and some even want each new natural herb/vitamin complex to be tested for safety (could that mean animals experiments too?)
If the laws must be tightened, at least if nothing else ... we should support campaigns to have pharmaceutical companies compare each new product to concentrated to best knwon vitamin/mineral/herb combination rather than just a placebo. If they want to kill of a natural health industry, conventional medicine needs to constantly prove to be much more effective and safer too........... are they really doing that?
Lothian
should be banned
I have read on many occasions and seen films which prove that garlic keeps vampires away.CFLarsen said:
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2001
- Messages
- 15,947
There are also plenty of herbs that will act as a diurentic. Several (such as Valerian Root) can knock you sleepy.
I thought St Johns Wort was found to be ineffecitive in some relatively recent studies.
In general, I have no problem believing that naturally occurring substances (i.e. drugs) can have theraputic effects.
The question is, what are the effects and what are the side effects and what is the relative value of these things versus other, usually manufactureed, drugs.
In fact where exactly does modern pharmacology come from if not the evolution of the use and development of naturally occurring chemical compounds through to the isolation of the effective agents, through to artificial replication of such compounds, through to the artifical manufacture of similar compounds, etc.
In general, I have no problem believing that naturally occurring substances (i.e. drugs) can have theraputic effects.
The question is, what are the effects and what are the side effects and what is the relative value of these things versus other, usually manufactureed, drugs.
In fact where exactly does modern pharmacology come from if not the evolution of the use and development of naturally occurring chemical compounds through to the isolation of the effective agents, through to artificial replication of such compounds, through to the artifical manufacture of similar compounds, etc.
Typical - skeptics hog the glory.
When you say non "woo-woo" herbs that's not technically correct.
Just because something works doesn't mean it's not, for lack of a better word, woo-woo.
Herbalists and Witchdoctors, whom you class as woo-woos, would have been using these herbs to conconct remedies long before they were proven to work.
eg Gypsies new of the medicinal properties of Digitalis before it was tested by modern science and used for heart trouble.
Indian shamans knew about the value of cinchona bark against malaria before it was tested by modern scientists.
Herbalists used garlic to treat wound infection long before it was proven by medical science to contain an antibiotic compound.
Hence these herbs are very much Woo-Woo.
When you say non "woo-woo" herbs that's not technically correct.
Just because something works doesn't mean it's not, for lack of a better word, woo-woo.
Herbalists and Witchdoctors, whom you class as woo-woos, would have been using these herbs to conconct remedies long before they were proven to work.
eg Gypsies new of the medicinal properties of Digitalis before it was tested by modern science and used for heart trouble.
Indian shamans knew about the value of cinchona bark against malaria before it was tested by modern scientists.
Herbalists used garlic to treat wound infection long before it was proven by medical science to contain an antibiotic compound.
Hence these herbs are very much Woo-Woo.