NLP (Neuro-linguistic programming)

[JM85]

Okay, I've read a couple books about NLP, and I'm still not sure what it is. NLP practitioners claim to use language patterns to change people's "models of the world" and it's supposed to make them think, and feel differently. At first NLP seems like nonsensical ramblings, but Darren Brown used it to do some pretty interesting tricks. I listened to some CDs that Richard Bandler recorded, and wasn't able to make any sense out of them. He's talking with music in the background, but it's not like hypnosis; he's just talking, like he's having a conversation. He says things that are supposed to make you feel confused, and that part works, but I didn't notice anything else.

It all seems like BS, but I'm curious to know more about it. Do you think there's any legitimacy to it?

 

[Garrette]

Okay, I've read a couple books about NLP, and I'm still not sure what it is. NLP practitioners claim to use language patterns to change people's "models of the world" and it's supposed to make them think, and feel differently. At first NLP seems like nonsensical ramblings, but Darren Brown used it to do some pretty interesting tricks. I listened to some CDs that Richard Bandler recorded, and wasn't able to make any sense out of them. He's talking with music in the background, but it's not like hypnosis; he's just talking, like he's having a conversation. He says things that are supposed to make you feel confused, and that part works, but I didn't notice anything else.

It all seems like BS, but I'm curious to know more about it. Do you think there's any legitimacy to it?

Any legitimacy? Yes. Like many bunkum ideas it has a kernel (or more) of trivial truths, but they are wrapped in nonsense.

And while Derren Brown is often credited with using NLP to accomplish his effects, he did no such thing, nor has he claimed to do so.

 

[Mirrorglass]

There might be legitimacy to some forms of it - the term is pretty widely used by people doing very different things. A lot of woo, too. We'd have to look at individual cases to see if there is anything to those particular ones.

 

[JM85]

If Darren Brown doesn't use NLP, then how do you explain this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg I think the legitimate part of NLP is about language effecting feeling's. Albert Ellis also writes about this in his books on REBT, but I don't even know if this is true. I mean, I feel more than think, so for some people it might be true. Could it be that some people's mid brain is more dominant than their neo cortex?

 

[Garrette]

If Darren Brown doesn't use NLP, then how do you explain this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=befugtgikMg I think the legitimate part of NLP is about language effecting feeling's. Albert Ellis also writes about this in his books on REBT, but I don't even know if this is true. I mean, I feel more than think, so for some people it might be true. Could it be that some people's mid brain is more dominant than their neo cortex?

He's a magician, specifically a mentalist. That's how I explain it. This kind of effect is not uncommon, though he packages it exceptionally well.

I note that the comments say he uses NLP. Tell me, please, where in the video Derren Brown says he uses NLP. And if you happen to be able to find that, then I suggest you find some of his books and pay for them to get the real scoop.

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but that video is a trick; it is not any sort of psychological influencing, nor does Derren Brown really present it as anything but that except when he is in performance.

Let me put it this way: You have no idea how NLP works but are willing to accept that it works. You also seem to have no idea how magician/mentalist tricks are done, but you seem unwilling to accept that they can work.

Why accept that one unknown thing can work but not another?

 

[Le Jab]

I'm suprised it still gets the audience it does. There are many critiques of NLP, none more damning than the US National Research Council. 16 top psychologists were recruited to undertake a systematic peer reviewed study for the US military into the effectiveness of NLP (published 1988). They looked at 20 research papers, interviewed and were seeemingly unimpressed with Bandler. He even told the council that the PRS (Primary Representational System) was no longer an important element of NLP - which surprises me as it is still being taught on NLP courses. They concluded all the evidence as to if NLP works was either neutral or negative. They also concluded any positive aspects were not unique to NLP. The committe found no scientific evidence to support the claim NLP is an 'effective strategy for exerting influence'.
Theres loads more.......

 

[Garrette]

I'm suprised it still gets the audience it does. There are many critiques of NLP, none more damning than the US National Research Council. 16 top psychologists were recruited to undertake a systematic peer reviewed study for the US military into the effectiveness of NLP (published 1988). They looked at 20 research papers, interviewed and were seeemingly unimpressed with Bandler. He even told the council that the PRS (Primary Representational System) was no longer an important element of NLP - which surprises me as it is still being taught on NLP courses. They concluded all the evidence as to if NLP works was either neutral or negative. They also concluded any positive aspects were not unique to NLP. The committe found no scientific evidence to support the claim NLP is an 'effective strategy for exerting influence'.
Theres loads more.......

So it's just like belief in all the other nonsense out there; facts don't matter.

In the specific case of Derren Brown--who doesn't claim to use NLP--I suspect it has something to do with human reluctance to admit that we can be fooled. NLP offers an easy out.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Just because New York is real doesn't mean that Spiderman is real.
We are in agreement on that, right?
NLP has some truth to it, like most woo but at the bottom line it's crap.

Seriously, the thing has been around (if I recall correctly) for over 40 years.
And yet it is used by exactly 0 critical organizations. It has not been entered to any medical establishment. It is only being taught in various "institutes" that are not properly supervised and monitored the same way that universities do. Care to ponder why?

I have a friend who is terribly into this stuff and I always laugh at it.
Think of how many uses this thing would have if it actually work?
And yet, you don't see them at all.

As for Darren Brown, have you checked the all powerful Wikipedia?

Neuro-linguistic programming
Several authors have claimed that Brown uses neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) in his act which "consists of a range of magical 'tricks', misdirection and, most intriguing, setting up audiences to provide the response that he wishes them to provide by using subtle subliminal cues in his conversation with them."[35] In response to the accusation that he unfairly claims to be using NLP whenever he performs, Brown writes "The truth is I have never mentioned it outside of my book". Brown does have an off-stage curiosity about the system, and discusses it in the larger context of hypnotism and suggestion.[17][36] In his book "Tricks of the Mind" he mentions that he attended an NLP course with Richard Bandler, co-creator of NLP and mentor of Paul McKenna, but suggests that the rigid systems of body language interpretation employed by NLP are not as reliable as its practitioners imply. He also mentions the NLP concept of eye accessing cues as a technique of "limited use" in his book "Pure Effect".[37] The language patterns which he uses to suggest behaviours are very similar in style to those used by Richard Bandler and by the hypnotist from whom Bandler learned his skill, Milton H. Erickson. Brown also mentions in his book 'Tricks of the Mind' that NLP students were given a certificate after a four-day course, certifying them to practice NLP as a therapist. A year after Brown attended the class, he received a number of letters saying that he would receive another certificate, not for passing a test (as he discontinued practising NLP following the course), but for keeping in touch. After ignoring their request, he later received the new certificate for NLP in his mailbox, unsolicited. [38]

 

[Le Jab]

I went on an NLP seminar in London. It was day four day into the seven day course, when I decided that enough was enough. There is potentially beneficial stuff in NLP, however, the egos and self-appointed guru status of Paul McKenna/Bandler turned my guts. Bandler was a bullcrappa extrordinaire. McKenna behaved like he was the second coming. It was similar to an evangelical mission.
They took people from the audience on stage - a group of suggestible, enthusiastic believers and made them experience what appeared to be powerful changes. (Phobias/addiction etc) It could either be hugely effective, or a great, brilliant, capitivating con. I think I know which side I fall on. And you dare not be critical. Very cultish. Doting, adoring followers who whooped and hollered cries of adulation when these guys appeared on stage.
There was an over-the -top American NLP trainer who was big into making people hug each-other, dance and howl like a werewolf.
I went to the loo whenever that bit was announced. It was alot of Californian bollox.

 

[DallasDad]

He's a magician, specifically a mentalist. That's how I explain it. This kind of effect is not uncommon, though he packages it exceptionally well.

I note that the comments say he uses NLP. Tell me, please, where in the video Derren Brown says he uses NLP. And if you happen to be able to find that, then I suggest you find some of his books and pay for them to get the real scoop.

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but that video is a trick; it is not any sort of psychological influencing, nor does Derren Brown really present it as anything but that except when he is in performance.

Let me put it this way: You have no idea how NLP works but are willing to accept that it works. You also seem to have no idea how magician/mentalist tricks are done, but you seem unwilling to accept that they can work.

Why accept that one unknown thing can work but not another?

So how did Derren pull that one off? The guest was an actor, so I suppose it could have been just pulling one over on the audience (the simplest explanation), but supposing he really did either (a) convince the guy to change to BMX, or (b) convince the guy to write leather jacket when the real desire was a BMX, what was the mechanism? I really like how Brown offers a false solution for those who want to solve things (it's part of what makes him so entertaining), but below the smoke and mirrors and false explanations, there's a real explanation. In this case, it was probably something simple and/or deceitful, but I'm curious to know what it was.

 

[JM85]

Garrette, maybe that video wasn't the best example of Darren Brown using NLP, but in this one it seems like he is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr-QtNE9k84 In this clip it looks like Brown's using the swish pattern; a technique in NLP where you switch one belief with another. I don't know anything about mentalism, but is this a common trick with it? Maybe he's pretending to use NLP, and is actually using the mental tricks you're talking about. I'm not saying NLP really works, I'm still undecided about it. As far as the therapeutic benefits of NLP I've had some success with spinning feelings, but it's only temporary.

GrandMasterFox, I was just reading that. Brown's response is he hasn't mentioned it outside his book. He criticizes NLP in some of the books he wrote, but I can't find where he says he's never used it.

 

[Garrette]

So how did Derren pull that one off? The guest was an actor, so I suppose it could have been just pulling one over on the audience (the simplest explanation), but supposing he really did either (a) convince the guy to change to BMX, or (b) convince the guy to write leather jacket when the real desire was a BMX, what was the mechanism? I really like how Brown offers a false solution for those who want to solve things (it's part of what makes him so entertaining), but below the smoke and mirrors and false explanations, there's a real explanation. In this case, it was probably something simple and/or deceitful, but I'm curious to know what it was.

I know how DB does some of his effects but not all. This is one I have a good idea about but don't know for a fact. Regardless, it does not require Simon Pegg to be in on it. That's all I'll say.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

As far as the therapeutic benefits of NLP I've had some success with spinning feelings, but it's only temporary.

Not to be offensive but it sounds just like any other alternative medicine \ new age crap people dabble into.

I will say that you seem far more honest and wise enough to ask around about it, but all in all, if these would have worked - we would see actual empirical results. It's as simple as that.

GrandMasterFox, I was just reading that. Brown's response is he hasn't mentioned it outside his book. He criticizes NLP in some of the books he wrote, but I can't find where he says he's never used it.

Not that big of a fan of Derren Brown so can't help you much with that.
Only saw his so called "skeptical show" and found it insanely borring beyond all proportions.

 

[Garrette]

Garrette, maybe that video wasn't the best example of Darren Brown using NLP, but in this one it seems like he is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr-QtNE9k84 In this clip it looks like Brown's using the swish pattern; a technique in NLP where you switch one belief with another. I don't know anything about mentalism, but is this a common trick with it? Maybe he's pretending to use NLP, and is actually using the mental tricks you're talking about. I'm not saying NLP really works, I'm still undecided about it. As far as the therapeutic benefits of NLP I've had some success with spinning feelings, but it's only temporary.

GrandMasterFox, I was just reading that. Brown's response is he hasn't mentioned it outside his book. He criticizes NLP in some of the books he wrote, but I can't find where he says he's never used it.

I understand the curiosity, but I'm not going to get into whack-a-mole with Derren Brown. He does not use NLP. He doesn't claim to use NLP. It is those who don't know what they are doing who affix the NLP label to him, and he does not actively deny it. However, in it writings, he does deny it. Even if he did not, what he does are mentalist tricks, including this video.


ETA: I have the book in which Brown explicitly denies using NLP. In it, he goes beyond denying using it and explains his experience with it and how he came to understand it is bunkum. I will refrain from naming it as the book has some mentalist methodology in it (though not as much as its length would suggest), and I don't care to give that away too easily. Still, it's findable for those who want to search for it.

But again: Brown never claims to use NLP in his demonstrations. It is the observers who claim it for him. It's like Conan Doyle telling Houdini that he (Houdini) escapes by becoming temporarily incorporeal despite Houdini insisting that it's all tricks.

 

[GrandMasterFox]

Garrette, maybe that video wasn't the best example of Darren Brown using NLP, but in this one it seems like he is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr-QtNE9k84 In this clip it looks like Brown's using the swish pattern; a technique in NLP where you switch one belief with another.

Don't know anything about swish patterns, but frankly I watched the clip and fail to see what is so impressive.

To be honest, the reaction seems complete fake to me.
Let me make that clear, by "fake" I don't mean that she was in on it or anything.
More like those idiotic stage hypnotists that simply give you the uneasy feeling that if you don't get hypnotized, you're going to ruin the show for everyone.
So you play along, even though you never met the hypnotist himself or get any money for it.

 

[Marduk]

NLP = useless
Pavlovian conditioning = awesome

 

[Emet]

Neurolinguistic Programming and other Nonsense
(...)
Briefly, NLP was developed in the 1970’s and is based upon the notion that success can be achieved by simply modeling the language, behavior, and thought patterns of successful people. Various versions of this have been applied to counseling by simply modeling the language and behavior of supposedly successful counselors.
(...)
When first proposed there was nothing overtly pseudoscientific about NLP. It was a bit simplistic and naïve, but may have had some merit. But it turns out that the assumptions of NLP, namely that our cognition, behavior and emotions can be “programmed” by mimicking the more superficial aspects of those with desirable attributes (for example posture and mannerism) are wrong. The last thirty years of research have simply shown that NLP is bunk.
(...)
In the case of NLP it has failed every test of both its underlying theories and empirical tests of its efficacy. So, in short, NLP does not make sense and it doesn’t work. In science you don’t get three strikes, those two and you’re out. It turns out that improving one’s cognitive ability and emotional stability is hard work – there’s no quick short cut. The brain is not infinitely reprogrammable – it can learn and change, but there is an underlying structure and function that is pretty resistant to change, and this resistance increases as we age. Change is possible, but it’s hard work. You can’t just download a new personality.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/?p=228

 

[23_Tauri]

NLP = useless
Pavlovian conditioning = awesome

Mmmm... pavlova! (salivates)

 

[tsig]

Mmmm... pavlova! (salivates)

You're supposed to wait for the bell.

 

[Senex]

Garrette, maybe that video wasn't the best example of Darren Brown using NLP, but in this one it seems like he is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr-QtNE9k84 In this clip it looks like Brown's using the swish pattern; a technique in NLP where you switch one belief with another. I don't know anything about mentalism, but is this a common trick with it? Maybe he's pretending to use NLP, and is actually using the mental tricks you're talking about. I'm not saying NLP really works, I'm still undecided about it. As far as the therapeutic benefits of NLP I've had some success with spinning feelings, but it's only temporary.

If you weren't so lazy you could have looked back at the comments on your video and read the comments by a wise youtube member named Senex2000 ( http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments=1&v=befugtgikMg&page=8 made three years ago and can be found a little over half the page down.)

NLP is complete woo woo. Many threads already exist about NLP and Brown's use (actually complete non-use) of it have been discussed exhaustively on this forum.