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Need Some Help w/ Argument

SkepticalScience

Thinker
S
Joined
Jul 2, 2003
Messages
225
Hey All. . .

Can someone help me out with this argument for GD belief?


<Begin Argument>
1. Back in the day, there were people that claimed stones came down from the sky.
2. The scientist back then asked for proof, a piece of the rock that came down, etc; but no one could manufacture such evidence.
3. But people continued seeing things come down, and would report them, but the scientits discounted the anecdotal stories. . .they wanted the hard evidence.
4. Well, eventually a whole entire town saw dozens of rocks fall down, which forced the scientific community to pay more attention to the claim, and lo and behold, it was true. . .there were meteors coming from the sky. . .the people, and anecdotal stories were right all along.

So the argument is, "Perhaps, Gd evidence is much the same. . .requiring more time for the appropriate evidence to be unearthed. Maybe right now, our science can't "detect" Gd evidence."

</End Argument>

I think everyone here, if presented with incontrvertible evidence, would believe in Gd. But if that evidence is NOT presented, that doesn't necessarily mean that GD doesn't exist, right?

Can someone elegantly point out the flaw in this argument?
 
Well it's the old invisible pink unicorns all around me one isn't it?

It also assumes we still have unexplained god-proving phenomena around, are there any?
 
You make it sound so contrarian. "The Scientific Community" collectively snubs the peasant masses and their primitive faith in falling rocks.

Please.

Of course it is possible that there is a God, but the flaw is that it is possible for any number of fantastical and often conflicting things to be true.

The choice one makes is to either go with what science helps us agree is the nature of the universe, or to speculate endlessly with no concensus.
 
Benguin said:
Well it's the old invisible pink unicorns all around me one isn't it?

It also assumes we still have unexplained god-proving phenomena around, are there any?
Click to expand...

Anything could be interpretted as God phenomena. Miracles are exactly that. Granted, some say that miracles can be dismissed as naturally occuring, albeit rare events. I'm personally siding with the thought that everything isn't explained, and that leaves open room for the possibility of God's existance.
BTW, as a curiousity, why do some people here write out God as an abbriviation? It's just 3 letters g-o-d. Why type it as Gd or G-d? Not being a smarty pants, just would like to know.
 
Right. There might be a god, but there also might be dragons (Or pink unicorns, or...).

Until there is proof, it's foolish to believe in it.
 
sorgoth said:
Right. There might be a god, but there also might be dragons (Or pink unicorns, or...).

Until there is proof, it's foolish to believe in it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you're right. There *could be* lots of stuff out there that we don't have evidence for at this time. Does this mean we drop the search and research into different kinds of phenomena? What a drag, from my POV, to never be inquistive and investigate the unknown.
 
Not noticed the gd thing, it might be some sarcastic statement on the hebrew use of vowels, look at the "God's name" thread.

Anything could be interpretted as God phenomena. Miracles are exactly that. Granted, some say that miracles can be dismissed as naturally occuring, albeit rare events.
Click to expand...

There aren't any proven instances of a miracle occuring, show me one and I'll believe something I didn't previously give credence to is it work. A long way from there to belief in god, or yaweh or whatever. Could be those invisible pink unicorns playing around again.

I'm personally siding with the thought that everything isn't explained, and that leaves open room for the possibility of God's existance.
Click to expand...

There are still things to be explained, that is why science still researches. Possiblity of god? I don't see it myself as the whole idea seems thoroughly absurd, but I could be wrong. Unexplained phenomena could be down to anything, god, more science, fairies, the unicorns again.

Yeah, you're right. There *could be* lots of stuff out there that we don't have evidence for at this time. Does this mean we drop the search and research into different kinds of phenomena? What a drag, from my POV, to never be inquistive and investigate the unknown.
Click to expand...

Quite the opposite, we investigate vigorously. And those of us on the sidelines enjoy the hunt. What you are suggesting is not investigation but speculation.
 
SkepticalScience said:
ah. . .right.

there is no natural stopping point to all sorts of fantastical "possibilities"
Click to expand...

Speak clearly, not sarcastically, please.
 
sorgoth said:
Right. There might be a god, but there also might be dragons (Or pink unicorns, or...).

Until there is proof, it's foolish to believe in it.
Click to expand...

You mean evidence, not proof.
 
Benguin said:

Quite the opposite, we investigate vigorously. And those of us on the sidelines enjoy the hunt. What you are suggesting is not investigation but speculation.
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to be ...well, trying. ;) Help me understand what you mean, Benguin. If God could be out there, but no hard evidence points to it, does this mean we should quit investigating claims of miracles, sightings, and other events creditted to God? How does investigating God phenomena differ from investigating other unknown phenomena?
 
Re: Re: Need Some Help w/ Argument

triadboy said:


No one is reporting seeing or hearing God.
Click to expand...

Au contraire! Lots of people report hearing from the big guy on a daily basis. ;)
 
I'm not trying to be ...well, trying. Help me understand what you mean, Benguin. If God could be out there, but no hard evidence points to it, does this mean we should quit investigating claims of miracles, sightings, and other events creditted to God?
Click to expand...

No problem with investigating claims, sightings, odd events. All for it.

How does investigating God phenomena differ from investigating other unknown phenomena?
Click to expand...

How does presupposing the existence/involvement of your god help in seeking out the truth in one of these phenomena? I could approach such an investigation with a preconception that the pink unicorns did it ... that would be equally absurd.

The advantage of a rational or scientific approach is that all one needs to do is find out how to (re)produce the phenomena in the same way, you don't need to sit around dreaming up theories, they come later.

Au contraire! Lots of people report hearing from the big guy on a daily basis.
Click to expand...

People report alien abductions, communication with many other gods than yours, hearing stuff from the likes of Sylvia Browne and John Edwards.

Argumentum ad populum, unless you can send me an mp3 of course.
 
The GM said:


I'm not trying to be ...well, trying. ;) Help me understand what you mean, Benguin. If God could be out there, but no hard evidence points to it, does this mean we should quit investigating claims of miracles, sightings, and other events creditted to God? How does investigating God phenomena differ from investigating other unknown phenomena?
Click to expand...
We should not stop investigating anything. But we don't start with a conclusion (it's God phenomena or a miracle) and then working backward. We observe the phenomena and draw conclusions based on what we see and the tests we perform on it.

There is no such thing as "God phenomena". It's just phenomena. Just as there is no supernatural, but only natural without adequate explanation. Perhaps the phenomena doesn't have an explanation yet, but it's still simply phenomena.

Calling so called miracles "God phenomena" is more commonly referred to as the God of the Gaps approach; that being anything we can't yet explain must have been done by God.

Considering all the things in past human history that we assigned to God that we now know have simple, natural explanations, it seems foolish to say, "Well, we don't know, so God musta did it".
 
SkepticalScience said:
Can someone elegantly point out the flaw in this argument?
Click to expand...
Its a Universal Negative statement, it presupposes the existence of God to evidence the existence of God, and it attempts to overliteralize the analogy of anecdotal falling rocks and anecdotal claims of God, that could be seen as a flaw.

There is also no way to distinguish between "evidence of God", "evidence of leprachauns", "evidence of ghosts", or "erroneous inference of natural phenomena". Therefore the problem with the argument is that there is very little intellectually accomplished.

(Something to note about the erroneous inference of natural phenomena is something humans like to do: Say those peasants announced "God is hurling the rocks down at us", does the existence of those falling rocks imply the existence of God? No, of course not.)
 
SkepticalScience said:

So the argument is, "Perhaps, Gd evidence is much the same. . .requiring more time for the appropriate evidence to be unearthed. Maybe right now, our science can't "detect" Gd evidence."
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree. :)
 
Re: Re: Re: Need Some Help w/ Argument

The GM said:
Au contraire! Lots of people report hearing from the big guy on a daily basis.
Click to expand...

But they don't hear His voice. They hear their own brain talking to itself. If they ever actually heard a disembodied voice speaking to them - they'd crap a brick.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Need Some Help w/ Argument

triadboy said:


But they don't hear His voice. They hear their own brain talking to itself. If they ever actually heard a disembodied voice speaking to them - they'd crap a brick.
Click to expand...

You have evidence of this?
 
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