Neanderthals, humans didn't mix

[Baker]

Any one read this story from CNN on Neanderthals?

He said modern studies of mitochondrial DNA from Neanderthal fossils suggest that the modern humans and the Neanderthals had a common ancestor about 500,000 years ago. But he said the studies do not support the notion that there was interbreeding after modern humans evolved in Africa and invaded Neanderthal habitats, starting about 45,000 years ago.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/03/07/neanderthal.puzzle.ap/index.html

 

[Dymanic]

Harpending said the genetic evidence is only marginal and open to different interpretations.

Maybe one of the different interpretations is that they simply didn't breed sucessfully. I thought artifacts from both types had been found in the same sites, and dated to the same times?

 

[kedo1981]

But you know, back in old days we had a saying, “ once you went THAL, you be having a ball”
Signed
Ogg

 

[neutrino_cannon]

It would be interesting having more than one kind of human running around.

There is no convincing evidence, says Richard G. Klein of Stanford University, that Neanderthals and modern humans ever mixed in substantial numbers, which means that when the Neanderthals died out, so did their genes.

Based on modern human sexual behavior, I doubt it stopped anyone trying.

 

[Always Free]

I must be psychic. Yesterday I happened to be thinking about Neanderthal and Modern Humans.

Anyway the documentary I saw a while back showed a skeleton that was found in the area where it is believed neanderthal and humans lived at the same time around the 40,000 yr mark.

From examinations of the bones---size of leg bones---thickness, length etc and the skull, the conclusion was drawn that this was an example of the offspring of the two species.

The leg bones were typical neanderthal--shorter, thicker than human but the skull was more human, smaller, 'finer' in shape.
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"Based on modern human sexual behavior, I doubt it stopped anyone trying."
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This is true.

But it's an interesting topic.

 

[Denise]

I remember that also, Always Free.

 

[Skeptoid]

Seems I remember reading somewhere that even if interbreeding did occur, the offspring would have been sterile.

 

[Denise]

Suffice it to say, that we don't know at this time if Neanderthal and Homo Sapiens interbred. We don't know enough about this yet. We know the Neanderthals died out, but we don't know if some of us have Neanderthal in us.

 

[The Fool]

but we don't know if some of us have Neanderthal in us.

leave it alone fool, leave it alone

 

[Denise]

leave it alone fool, leave it alone

Arr Arr Arr. Seriously though, we don't know if we intermixed. Geez! I like a little neanderthal in my man! Kidding!

 

[Badger]

Does anyone know how long it takes for a species to differentiate? What I mean is if Neanderthal and Homo Sapien Sapien split 500 000 years ago, is that long enough for them to become separate species, or merely different breeds?

 

[zakur]

Anyway the documentary I saw a while back showed a skeleton that was found in the area where it is believed neanderthal and humans lived at the same time around the 40,000 yr mark.

From examinations of the bones---size of leg bones---thickness, length etc and the skull, the conclusion was drawn that this was an example of the offspring of the two species.

The leg bones were typical neanderthal--shorter, thicker than human but the skull was more human, smaller, 'finer' in shape.

The alleged human-Neandertal hybrid was discovered in Portugal. There was a lot of controversy about it at the time (1999), and many said that a definitive answer could not really be made from a strictly morphological comparison - but that a comparison of mitochondrial DNA should be done. This most recent DNA study may have definitively answered that question.

I use 'definitively' hesitantly because we all know that's the great thing about science. With continued study in this area we'll learn much more and may revise theories of human origins even further.

Anyway, here's the abstract of that 1999 report:

The early Upper Paleolithic human skeleton from the Abrigo do Lagar Velho (Portugal) and modern human emergence in Iberia.

Duarte C, Mauricio J, Pettitt PB, Souto P, Trinkaus E, van der Plicht H, Zilhao J.

Instituto Portugues do Patrimonio Arquitectonico, Divisao de Conservacao e Restauro, Palacio da Ajuda, 1400-206 Lisbon, Portugal.

The discovery of an early Upper Paleolithic human burial at the Abrigo do Lagar Velho, Portugal, has provided evidence of early modern humans from southern Iberia. The remains, the largely complete skeleton of a approximately 4-year-old child buried with pierced shell and red ochre, is dated to ca. 24,500 years B.P. The cranium, mandible, dentition, and postcrania present a mosaic of European early modern human and Neandertal features. The temporal bone has an intermediate-sized juxtamastoid eminence. The mandibular mentum osseum and the dental size and proportions, supported by mandibular ramal features, radial tuberosity orientation, and diaphyseal curvature, as well as the pubic proportions align the skeleton with early modern humans. Body proportions, reflected in femorotibial lengths and diaphyseal robusticity plus tibial condylar displacement, as well as mandibular symphyseal retreat and thoracohumeral muscle insertions, align the skeleton with the Neandertals. This morphological mosaic indicates admixture between regional Neandertals and early modern humans dispersing into southern Iberia. It establishes the complexities of the Late Pleistocene emergence of modern humans and refutes strict replacement models of modern human origins.

PMID: 10377462 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[arcticpenguin]

Does anyone know how long it takes for a species to differentiate? What I mean is if Neanderthal and Homo Sapien Sapien split 500 000 years ago, is that long enough for them to become separate species, or merely different breeds?

Check this thread about a speciation event that happened pretty much overnight do to a chromosomal rearrangement that prevents inter-breeding. After that, the two species would drift apart over time due to randomness and selection.

 

[arcticpenguin]

Suffice it to say, that we don't know at this time if Neanderthal and Homo Sapiens interbred. We don't know enough about this yet. We know the Neanderthals died out, but we don't know if some of us have Neanderthal in us.

Can humans and succubi interbreed? I'd be willing to experiment.

 

[Baker]

The alleged human-Neandertal hybrid was discovered in Portugal. There was a lot of controversy about it at the time (1999), and many said that a definitive answer could not really be made from a strictly morphological comparison - but that a comparison of mitochondrial DNA should be done. This most recent DNA study may have definitively answered that question.

I use 'definitively' hesitantly because we all know that's the great thing about science. With continued study in this area we'll learn much more and may revise theories of human origins even further.

Anyway, here's the abstract of that 1999 report:

I wonder why CNN failed to mention that I recall hearing about it also but nothing has been said on it.

 

[Denise]

Can humans and succubi interbreed? I'd be willing to experiment.

I'll be over later...

 

[Always Free]

I remember that also, Always Free.

Hi Denise,

That was one well done documentary. I wish I could remember the name of it.
Maybe someone will find the dna of a neanderthal being in the fossilised sample of sap from a tree which grew thousands of years ago, which has encased a blood filled mosquito which had bitten the neanderthal man and landed on the sticky sap and was trapped. Then the dna could be used in the laboritory to create a--------Nah, that could never happen.

 

[Crossbow]

Some 20,000 years ago there were three different species of humans existing at the same time.

Due to major enviromental changes, many of the large mammals died out and the weather patterns underwent considerable change. Two of these three species were not able to adjust to these changes so they did not survive. However, one species, Homo Sapiens, was able to adjust to the changes and survive.

I think that fact is a big blind spot of the Creationists, in that they only see one species of humans now so they think that there has always only been one species of humans. However, at different times in history there have been two, or even three, different species living on Earth at the same time.

For more details on the facts, I reccomend the TalkOrigins web site.

 

[arcticpenguin]

Maybe someone will find the dna of a neanderthal being in the fossilised sample of sap from a tree which grew thousands of years ago, which has encased a blood filled mosquito which had bitten the neanderthal man and landed on the sticky sap and was trapped. Then the dna could be used in the laboritory to create a--------Nah, that could never happen.

A pretty unlikely scenario.

Red blood cells do not have DNA, only white blood cells, so there's not much to start with.

Mosquito guts are filled with digestive enzymes, which would break down any DNA.

The time span involved (28K+ years) is at the long end of the scale for finding DNA samples at all. Bone marrow from fossils has been examined, and they have found some mitochondrial DNA, but not nuclear DNA, which is more fragile.

 

[BobM]

I think that fact is a big blind spot of the Creationists, in that they only see one species of humans now so they think that there has always only been one species of humans. However, at different times in history there have been two, or even three, different species living on Earth at the same time.

Yeah.. but Creationists only go back about 6,000 years. You start saying "20,000 years ago, such and such" and they already know you are mistaken.