Neal Boortz: "ADD does not exist!"

[Iamme]

To some of you, I'm sure that you have heard other say the same thing. Neal said it on his radio show yesterday, and has stated this before.

He believes Attention Deficit Disorder and ADHD (more of the same) have to do with kids upbringing, their environment...NOT from a DISEASE, per say. He believes the drug companies are making this a disease to sell more drugs, like Ritalin.

I too have figured that hyper kids are just that. They are healthy and energetic. Some more than others. They want to be into everything at once.

You have any thoughts on this?

 

[BillHoyt]

To some of you, I'm sure that you have heard other say the same thing. Neal said it on his radio show yesterday, and has stated this before.

He believes Attention Deficit Disorder and ADHD (more of the same) have to do with kids upbringing, their environment...NOT from a DISEASE, per say. He believes the drug companies are making this a disease to sell more drugs, like Ritalin.

I too have figured that hyper kids are just that. They are healthy and energetic. Some more than others. They want to be into everything at once.

You have any thoughts on this?

Boortz is a radio commentator. He stated his opinion. Big whoop. Your name has one too many 'm's in it. Go away.

 

[Bronze Dog]

I don't know anything about ADD or ADHD, but with all the coverage of it out there, it wouldn't surprise me if there's also a lot of misdiagnosis going on (and legitimate, improved diagnosis going on as well). Kids, by their nature, tend to be energetic and unfocused, at least in my experience, so I can see how some people would jump to conclusions.

Here's a rolled up newspaper in case anyone with more concrete knowledge would like to pound some sense into me. *hands it over*

 

[BracesForImpact]

I think your radio personality is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. While I agree that there is over diagnosis of the problem, simply saying the problem does not exist doesn't seem to be warranted.

I'll skip my anecdotal evidence, and throw some links at ya about some recent findings...

Here is a Pub-Med article on the Corpus Callosum morphology and ADD patients. This article states in part "While all MRI scans were judged to be clinically normal, morphometric analysis revealed that, compared to nondisabled controls, ADHD children had a smaller corpus callosum, particularly in the region of the genu and splenium, and in the area just anterior to the splenium. Interhemispheric fibers in these regions interconnect the left and right frontal, occipital, parietal, and posterior temporal regions. These results suggest that subtle differences may exist in the brains of children with ADHD and that deviations in normal corticogenesis may underlie the behavioral manifestations of this disorder."

Here is a Harvard article on the subject.

To summarize, I think it's a legitimate medical condition, although I do believe it's over diagnosed and I don't think that medication is necessarily called for in each case.

 

[ungoliant]

there may be some evidence that it is a legitimate medical problem, but is its cause genetic or environmental? to me, that is the most pressing question, other than how to treat it.

 

[headscratcher4]

I think Boortz makes some good points... hey those are pretty flowers over ther! When will it be time for lunch?

Is that a new dress you are wearing?

This whole Iraq thing has me very concerned.

Puppies! There are puppies just outside!

Sorry for the derail..back to the adults.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Most people don't have the chance to actually compare an ADHD kid to a non-ADHD/ADD child. There is no way to misdiagnose these kids if a proper diagnosis has taken place. In Alberta a kid has to be observed for six months before a diagnosis can be given. These observations take place in a variety of settings by a variety of professionals.

Most people are totally ignorant as to the process and have no business spouting their mouths off until they go and see what is really done. This includes brainless maroons like that bore, Boortz.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

Everyone, take to heart what Eos of the Eons said.

I was going to make a post about this, but.. I fail to see the point now.

The important facts concerning this issue is already on the table.

 

[c4ts]

This whole "ADD does not exist" thing started out as a Scientology recruitment scam anyway...

 

[hgc]

For parents and teachers who have to deal with kids who frankly can't function in educational, and sometimes social, settings due to whatever ADD is, the old cop-out that children are energetic must be pretty f*cking aggravating. Children who can't get educated have a much lower chance of functioning in society as adults. That's a problem worth taking seriously.

 

[casebro]

This post brings up some questions:

How does the Corpus Callosum concept apply to the other thread about the differing brain geometry amoungst men vs women? Does ADD have a sexual preference? Are younger boys more scatterbrained until they grow up enough to concentrate on sex? Maybe all men have ADD, just poll women? Or does sexual arousal temporarily improve Corpus Callosum connections amoung women, thereby allowing a longer sexual attention span than among men?

Hey, but none of my girlfriends ever complained about the size of my Corpus Callosum ....or is that the wrong corpus? damn, my attention span is shorter than my Corpus Callosum.

 

[stamenflicker]

ADD does not exist, at least "really" exist. It exists because we have created a human scale to represent human behavior nominally. There is no "point of demarcation" at which ADD begins to exist, or ceases to exist within the human specimen, unlike other "real" diseases. When one has cancer, one can see it and observe its progress and existence via microscope, tissue samples, etc. etc.

ADD is not a disease, it is a social construction. Like genocide, it can only exist when certain vectors of a sociological niche form a space for it... one of those vectors being the very psychologists and drug companies who profit from it.

When we begin to deal with unobservable "diseases" we open the door for all kinds of politcal evil covered in law, and we create the opportunity for the violation of human rights in the name of controlling that "disease." One hundred years from now, society will be appalled by the slavery we projected upon on children because we as adults were in fact the ones screwed up.

Consider: For every 1 crime committed against adults in this country, there are 3 times as many crimes committed against children. For every 1 crime against adults that goes unpunished, there are 10 times as many unpunished crimes against children.

The disorders of children, save perhaps schizophrenia in older teens and mental retardation, is almost always 99% of the time the result of adult projection. Trust me on this one.

Flick

 

[RandFan]

Most people don't have the chance to actually compare an ADHD kid to a non-ADHD/ADD child. There is no way to misdiagnose these kids if a proper diagnosis has taken place. In Alberta a kid has to be observed for six months before a diagnosis can be given. These observations take place in a variety of settings by a variety of professionals.

Most people are totally ignorant as to the process and have no business spouting their mouths off until they go and see what is really done. This includes brainless maroons like that bore, Boortz.

Thank you.

It's possible that we medicate kids too often and that doctors might be too willing to make such a diagnosis but the problems are real.

 

[RandFan]

Trust me on this one.

Flick

Thank you but no. I'm curious, why do you think we should trust you on this one? Why do different children respond differently even though they are raised by the same parents? Have you ever had to work with a child so diagnosed?

FWIW, I have no problem with people being skeptical of labeling such disorders. There is good evidence that such disorders can be the result of suggestion. But there is evidence that children suffer disorders beyond schizophrenia. But don't ask me to just "trust you". Not a very good hallmark of skepticism or critical thinking. I've worked with children with severe, chronic symptoms and they are not so easily dismissed by circling your ear with your indexed finger.

 

[stamenflicker]

Randfan,

I've worked with children with severe, chronic symptoms and they are not so easily dismissed by circling your ear with your indexed finger.

I wouldn't presume to, but that did make me chuckle. As to why you should trust me, I was stoking a response, like a hot poker on a glowing log. I'm not going to detail my experience with this population because it is extensive, crossing psychological and educational lines.

So we observe phenomenon in children that is behaviorally out of line with social expectation.... no doubt our observation is real. However, to say that the subject being observed is "disordered" or "diseased" crosses the boundary of logic. Again, the observation is many times a real one, but the diagnosis based on that observation is "Pie in the Sky."

Sure the diagnosis is a "real" something, but a "real" what? It is a real social construction, nothing more. In a world where everyone's favorite color is supposed to be blue, then all those who favor green have a disorder.

The problem here, unlike say diabetes or cancer, is that you can't draw blood or examine the problem via any material means. There is no cut, scrape, gash, or severed artery by which one can assume injury. Instead, the injury is in the social world in which the child operates. The injury is ours, not his/her. Expectation is x, subject doesn't meet expectation, therefore subject is disordered. Fill in the blank.

The problem with this mentality is many fold:

1) It removes power/freedom from the individual and places it in law and social institutions. ((ex. He can't sit still, therefore we need to drug him to make him "better;" or worse, "he is spending all his money on manic episodes, therefore we need to take away his rights to his money; or worse still lets just institutionalize the guy))

2) It displaces personal responsibility. ((ex. Johnny would never hit his playmates, it was his condition.))

3) It sets the stage for any number of things to become one of these "etheral disorders." Until recently homosexuality was a disorder in the DSM, who is to say it won't be again given the current religious/political climate? ((ex. Susie is a lesbian, she needs this pill to fix her condition))

4) It is policed by itself, in that the very people creating conditions and disorders are the group benefiting from them. This is no different from the Catholic church instituting a policy of "Indulgences" in the Middle Ages. ((ex. Little Timmy is suffering from acute bi-polar, but I believe with a year of intensive counseling with me, we can get him where he needs to be.))

5) It diverts attention from the real illness in society-- adults. As I mentioned above, ADD is as real as genocide is real, in that it is socially constructed. The problem with genocide (as recently witnessed in the Sudan discussion) is that there is no real method for identifying it. Does genocide begin after 10,000 deaths? 100,000? or maybe 1/4 million? It is not as if genocide has a formula: x/t < 100,000, where x is the number of deaths and t is the time in days through which these deaths occur. Finally, genocide has a political / social element: ex. Phillip Morris isn't going to get called up on genocide charges no matter how many people tobacco kills.

So while we are busy passing laws in the UN to curb genocide (I liken this to giving a kid a pill), people going on killing each other anyway. Saadam was a perfect example with a 1/4 million deaths per year in his country, 8 UN resolutions, and no reduction in the elusive "genocide" category, because what he was doing wasn't harsh enough to be considered genocide... why? Because no one really knows what it is apart from the social conditions and constructions that surround it.

Meanwhile, back at home, we suddenly realize that 1/3 of our population is suffering from ADD and all of it since the 1960's. Rather than look at the social conditions, the vectors of this niche that allowed us to create this category of disorder, we label it or name it, believing somehow that this leads us to be able to control it. Instead of fixing the social vectors, we drug the children, or worse, we kick them out of school and begin the road of institutionalization for them.

Anyway I'm rambling. I strongly suggest those interested in the topic consider, Thomas Szasz "Insanity, its scope and consequences;" Ian Hacking's "Mad Travelers;" and CS Lewis "The Abolition of Man" as a few good reads to begin thinking outside the mainstream on the subject.

Enjoy your posts RandFan.... hope this didn't sound like a rant. I'm having fun with the topic.

Flick

 

[luchog]

Thank you.

It's possible that we medicate kids too often and that doctors might be too willing to make such a diagnosis but the problems are real.

There is some belief that the increase in ADD/ADHD is in large part how kids are raised as well. During their developmental years, they're innundated with short-term stimuli, predominantly television, and thus don't develop the longer attention spans; which is reflected in brain development.

 

[Bronze Dog]

There is some belief that the increase in ADD/ADHD is in large part how kids are raised as well. During their developmental years, they're innundated with short-term stimuli, predominantly television, and thus don't develop the longer attention spans; which is reflected in brain development.

Heard one possible explanation for an alleged correlation some people draw between television and ADD: Reverse causation: ADD causes television viewing, not the other way around.

That rolled-up newspaper from my first post in this thread is still available if anyone needs it.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Ugh. Children with ADD and ADHD have observable and very real disorders.

It's the spectrum disorders like Autism and Tourette's that are harder to nail down if the symptoms are not as severe. You can have a Tourettes child with just a few tics, and not much else. Or, You can have a Tourettes child with ADHD, learning disabilities, and OCD.

You can have children in the same family, one with ADHD and the other a bookworm that is completely the opposite of his brother (like with my children). They are parented the same, but are completely different children.

DSM-IV Criteria for ADHD
I. Either A or B:

Six or more of the following symptoms of inattention have been present for at least 6 months to a point that is disruptive and inappropriate for developmental level:



Let me tell you about impulsivity! And distractibility! And omigosh, the hyperness!! And boy, does he lose stuff. I'm talking to the extreme. I'm talking about a kid that literally climbed walls, that used a grocery store as a jungle gym. My other kids can be told "stop that" and they behave. My oldest just seems to forget, he is just him. He is from another planet! It's taken a lot, but he's come a long way. He still drives me crazy in the car at 13 years old playing with everything (radio, seat settings, temperature controls) while I'm driving, but he doesn't get irate when I tell him to stop. He stops for a few minutes and starts on something else (maybe he'll start dancing in his seat to the music, so that the whole vehicle sways). He just has to be moving constantly! And making noise. And talking and talking and talking. And yelling at his brother & sister for doing anything that he might do (make noise, move the seat). Man, does that kid have double standards!! Trust me, it's okay for HIM to make noise, but Ed forbid if a sibling does! It bugs him!

Displaces personal responsibility??? NO. That is one of the main focusses of his treatment. He takes personal responsiblility for his actions much better now because of this trained intervention. His anger levels are self controlled now because of it. It was like moving a mountain, but he's improved so much. These kids need these interventions before they become adults. I can't stress that enough. The whole purpose of diagnosing these kids is to help him for these reasons.

Fixing social Vectors?? I'm doing nothing different with my other children. The younger son does copy some of his older brother's behaviors, but with letting the teachers know of his brother's disorder they know not to allow my younger son to think he can use some excuse to misbehave. He tried it, but didn't get away with it. My younger son made a complete turnaround once we took him to the psychologist and came back to the school with a clean bill of mental health. He has taken personal accountability for his actions, and without meds, because he doesn't need them. It's funny what a kid will try! He couldn't get away with it at home, and didn't try it. He had the teachers wondering for a few months there though! Sheesh. The teachers were complaining that my quiet kid (at home) was noisy! It was because he was getting away with it by copying his brother's tics! Tics are involuntary, you could tell this kid was doing it on purpose. He didn't bother faking any noise tics for the doctor. The teachers started a chart for him at school, and he smartened up.

So I guess we fixed a social "vector"?? Thing is, you can't do that with a child who actually has ADHD/ADD. They aren't doing it consciously.

So you can't have a kid just "act up" and get a diagnosis of ADHD or ADD. The professionals know the difference. There are behaviour disorders, and there are ADD/ADHD. You need different types of interventions depending on the case.

I remember boys in my classes when I was a kid. They didn't get the label "ADD" or "ADHD", they got the label "BAD KID". This didn't help them at all, and some are now in jail, and I know 2 that are dead, one by suicide. Society used to just punish these kids the moment they entered school. Now these kids get the help they need to transition much better to adulthood.

stamenflicker, your posts scare me. It would put my child at risk instead of getting him the helps that have made him as successful as he is now. He will be 14 in Oct. He has a part time job at a gas station where he earns tips and gets praises from his boss (unlike his "normal" friend, who keeps getting dragged into the office for lipping off customers). A customer is rude to my son, and my son shows enough self control to just let it go. A few years ago he would have keyed the guy's car, or punched him (he used to hit me). He can put his energy to good use on the job. If he's not washing windshields or pumping gas, he's cleaning up the place. He loses his house keys, but remembers to put his shirt in the wash. There are more good points to praise him for now. His tics? They are annoying to those who have no idea why he makes weird noises. More people are learning, becoming aware though, and find it interesting instead of annoying.

So you can say we're just creating a problem. From my perspective we are finally doing something to make this world fit these kids (instead of making the kids fit the world we created) before they become adults who are sick of being punished for just being themselves. Change the school system so that kids with a lot of energy have more hands on educations instead of sitting in a chair all day long. Give them meds if they help, they have helped my son (he would actually tolerate a light touch after taking the meds, and he finally let me hug him). He was never some drugged zombie, he was still hyper. He could tolerate a classroom setting though.

I don't think there is enough awareness. I would encourage stamenflicker to actually go and research the actual kids involved here. No politics, only kids that are now able to grow up and not be angry at the world for labelling them "bad".

 

[stamenflicker]

Eon,

I realize that this topic impacts people personally. Perhaps it is best to just leave the issue at the door, shake hands and wish each other well.

That said, for the record, I don't hold much esteem for the DSM in any version. It is more a book of magic to me than science.

So I guess we fixed a social "vector"?? Thing is, you can't do that with a child who actually has ADHD/ADD.

If you mean "we" to mean our culture, then yes. If you mean "we" to mean you as parents, probably not.

The professionals know the difference.

I know many of these professionals. I've worked with them closely. I'm married to one too. Psychology is an art, not a science. Given this, one must only decide to what degree he/she allows the artist to speak. Artists try to paint a picture of reality, but their pictures aren't real in the same sense of the landscape they paint.

I remember boys in my classes when I was a kid. They didn't get the label "ADD" or "ADHD", they got the label "BAD KID". This didn't help them at all, and some are now in jail, and I know 2 that are dead, one by suicide. Society used to just punish these kids the moment they entered school. Now these kids get the help they need to transition much better to adulthood.

Again, its about naming and naming is about control. It is less about fixing these issues and more about making them.

I wonder how it is that now, with our "improved" powers of scientific and pyschological observation, juvenile crime has increased 15 fold?

I wonder how it is that now, with our "improved" powers of scientific and pyschological observation, juvenile suicide has quadrupled?

We aren't making these problems you speak of go away with current pyschological theory... in fact, an argument can be made that we're making them worse. I have neither the time nor the energy at the moment to outline how that may be true, I can only point you to the above readings.

stamenflicker, your posts scare me. It would put my child at risk instead of getting him the helps that have made him as successful as he is now.

Well, I'm not going to make it personal. I'm glad your child is doing well. I sincerely hope his progress does nothign but improve.

I would encourage stamenflicker to actually go and research the actual kids involved here.

I have many years of education and counseling experience. I know them intimately... and sure, drugs work to balance out emotional and mental states. All kinds of drugs work, some prescribed, and others like the one curled up in my fingers right this moment getting sipped through a 12 oz. can.

Flick

 

[Ryokan]

There's this website that claims ADHD is a fraud.