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Nazi Salute Shame

funk de fino

Dreaming of unicorns
funk de fino
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Although this is not current by any means of the word, it is for me, as I only saw this story for the first time at the weekend. Although a sports story, I believe it is also a social issue.

This photograph is of the England football team giving a Nazi salute prior to a friendly game against Germany in 1938. The team were ordered to give a salute by the Foreign Office.



The only player to refuse was a young Wolves player called Stan Cullis. He was dropped from the team but went on in later years to captain the side.

I saw this photo for the first time on a TV show at the weekend and can truly say it was one of those "WTH" moments. My grandfather spent the majority of the war in Stalag XXB and was one of the death march survivors. I do not start many threads on this forum but I was stunned when I saw this and wondered how well known this was amongst posters from the UK?

A great reason for keeping politics out of sport.
 
Not an effort to gloss over nazism, but consider the date and the context here. Consider what the gesture was trying to say at the moment, not what it would have said if the participants had 20-20 foresight.

In 1938, this wouldn't have been nearly as big a deal as it would be if it was 1946. This wasn't a nation at war with britain at the time. Didn't they host the summer olympics that year? I imagine there are foreign folks who put their hands over their hearts as a gesture of respect during the american national anthem.

A
 
Andrew Wiggin said:
Not an effort to gloss over nazism, but consider the date and the context here. Consider what the gesture was trying to say at the moment, not what it would have said if the participants had 20-20 foresight.

In 1938, this wouldn't have been nearly as big a deal as it would be if it was 1946. This wasn't a nation at war with britain at the time. Didn't they host the summer olympics that year? I imagine there are foreign folks who put their hands over their hearts as a gesture of respect during the american national anthem.

A
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Yet it was a big enough stooshy that most of the players went bananas in the dressing room when told thay HAD to do it.

They had annexed Austria at that point also. No-one was under any illusions of what Nazi germany was all about (except Chamberlain it appears) Summer Olympics were 1936.
 
funk de fino said:
Although this is not current by any means of the word, it is for me, as I only saw this story for the first time at the weekend. Although a sports story, I believe it is also a social issue.

This photograph is of the England football team giving a Nazi salute prior to a friendly game against Germany in 1938. The team were ordered to give a salute by the Foreign Office.

[URL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_182444b7925d4aba49.jpg[/URL]

The only player to refuse was a young Wolves player called Stan Cullis. He was dropped from the team but went on in later years to captain the side.

I saw this photo for the first time on a TV show at the weekend and can truly say it was one of those "WTH" moments. My grandfather spent the majority of the war in Stalag XXB and was one of the death march survivors. I do not start many threads on this forum but I was stunned when I saw this and wondered how well known this was amongst posters from the UK?

A great reason for keeping politics out of sport.
Click to expand...

How do you know they were not members of Oswald Mosley's Union of British Fascists?

Fascism was quite popular in Britain.
 
funk de fino said:
Yet it was a big enough stooshy that most of the players went bananas in the dressing room when told thay HAD to do it.

They had annexed Austria at that point also. No-one was under any illusions of what Nazi germany was all about (except Chamberlain it appears) Summer Olympics were 1936.
Click to expand...

In the 1930s the British Royal Family were fans of Hitler.
 
MaGZ said:
How do you know they were not members of Oswald Mosley's Union of British Fascists?

Fascism was quite popular in Britain.
Click to expand...

It's true that footballers aren't generally known for their intelligence, but in this case your suppositions are incorrect.
 
funk de fino said:
Yet it was a big enough stooshy that most of the players went bananas in the dressing room when told thay HAD to do it.
Click to expand...
This match report and this Observer article have their doubts - that the players were indifferent or at most reluctant, not that they went bananas.

funk de fino said:
They had annexed Austria at that point also. No-one was under any illusions of what Nazi germany was all about (except Chamberlain it appears) Summer Olympics were 1936.
Click to expand...
Well, the Anschluss was still regarded as a more or less legitimate claim. The match was in May 1938 - Munich was still half a year away.
 
MaGZ said:
How do you know they were not members of Oswald Mosley's Union of British Fascists?

Fascism was quite popular in Britain.
Click to expand...

Because they did not want to do it. They had to be ordered to. Logic is not your friend.
 
ddt said:
This match report and this Observer article have their doubts - that the players were indifferent or at most reluctant, not that they went bananas.
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I take Stanley Matthews word on this I'm afraid.

As Stanley Matthews later recalled: "The dressing room erupted. There was bedlam. All the England players were livid and totally opposed to this, myself included. Everyone was shouting at once. Eddie Hapgood, normally a respectful and devoted captain, wagged his finger at the official and told him what he could do with the Nazi salute, which involved putting it where the sun doesn't shine." The FA official left only to return some minutes later saying he had a direct order from Sir Neville Henderson the British Ambassador in Berlin.
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The players - led by England Captain Eddie Hapgood who was also Arsenal's captain and star player - initially refused and the dressing room mutiny threatened to spark a diplomatic incident.

A senior diplomat from the British Foreign Office intervened and it was eventually agreed that the England team would comply with the German request (albeit reluctantly).
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If you have any evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it.


Well, the Anschluss was still regarded as a more or less legitimate claim. The match was in May 1938 - Munich was still half a year away.
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More or less? Hitler pushed so there was no vote.
 
Shameful indeed as by 1938, the Nazi military dictatorship, university purges, political executions, and pogroms against Jews were well known to everyone. It's not like the football team wouldn't have known what they were about.
 
ravdin said:
That's not so shameful. The "Man of the Year" is the person they see as the most influential- not necessarily the person they admire the most.
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Indeed, Stalin made MOTY 1939 & 1942
Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979
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Tempest in a teapot.

Athletes being told they must, for diplomatic reasons, salute in the Nazi way in 1938 -- before the war and holocaust -- is not nice and shows the appeasement of British government, but it's more a matter of "The guy's a jerk, but they're forcing me to do this" than "Kill all the Jews, we're being you!". Kudos to Cullis for refusing, but I can't really blame those who saluted.

Similarly with Hitler making "man of the year". It's the most influential man, certainly not the best morally. This was always their policy with choosing "Man of the Year". It's like people today saying Hitler or Stalin were the most influential men of the 20th century. That hardly means they're Communists or Nazis!
 
funk de fino said:
I take Stanley Matthews word on this I'm afraid.

If you have any evidence to the contrary, I would love to see it.
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No I don't. In fact, in this Torygraph article Hapgood corroborates Matthews' story w.r.t. his outrage.

funk de fino said:
More or less? Hitler pushed so there was no vote.
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Sure. I may have poorly expressed myself. While there was no vote on it, the general impression was that most Austrians favoured being part of Germany, and had favoured that since the end of WW1.
 
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