Mystic experience?

[John Mekki]

Hi all,
I am new in this forum, so I hope my story will not look out of topic here.

Back ten years ago, even little bit more, I was part of a Catholic praying group, a very serious one indeed, that gathered every Saturday night in a religious community with about twenty other people, mainly young ones.
The usual night was all about praying, listening to the teachings of the "spiritual mother" of the community, and "adoration", which was a special time in which people stayed in silence and meditation in front of an icon.
Sometimes, after that we had a small party and then came back home around 23.

So far nothing extremely particular, except for what happened one night, that I may remember for the rest of my life.
That night, after the usual praying time, there was a time of "adoration" in which we had to go in front of altar and meditate for a few seconds on front of a picture of the Holy Lady and then come back to our places.
After I did just that, while coming back to my place, I felt like someone pulling my jacket with some strenght.
I turned back and there was no one close to me, the closest person was at least one meter away.
I could not understand who may have pulled my jacket, so I asked one girl there, "did you pull my jacket?"
She looked at me staringly, and half joking she said "it may have been one of your pretenders".

I did not know what to think.
Driving home I discussed the fact with my brother, and he suggested me it had been the Holy Lady to pull my jacket.

Few weeks after, we had another teaching in the same place, it was a discussion about evilness in the world and how we tend to see only bad things in the world.
The "spiritual mother" said that Satan tries to make us think that only bad things happen in the world.
It was the period soon after September 11.
She said: "for example, some people do not understand why tragedies such as September 11 happen, but there is a reason for that.."
And she tried to explain that American people lived too lavishly and that somehow September 11 was a "reply" from God to this.
The week after I stopped to go to the meetings.

Still, sometimes I think about that night, and about who pulled my jacket.
Who could have been?
I could not see anyone so close to me to pull my jacket and there was no chair nor any other object where my jacket could have been get caught into.
It is true that in that period I was maybe hyper-sensitive, it was a though time of my life, but it is hard for me to imagine that I completely made it up by myself.
Or did I?

Any ideas?

 

[Garrette]

Welcome to the forum, John.

I'll split my response in two, but first let me ask what a "pretender" is in this context. I Googled and found nothing that fits the context. I was raised Catholic and have never heard the term in the way in which your friend used it. Did your or she perhaps mean "protector" instead?

-------

In regard to whether the jacket pull was a mystic experience, let's list the possibilities:

1. It was a mystic experience in which some non-corporeal being pulled the jacket

2. The girl who responded half-joking was, indeed, joking and did the pulling

3. Someone else did the pulling and you only responded when you had stepped far enough away that it seemed they were too distant to have done it

4. You caught your jacket on something such as the end of a pew

5. The hem of the jacket caught on something else on your person such as a pen in your back pocket and "pulled" when you leaned forward and unstuck it

6. The pull didn't happen at all but your communal feelings were heightened and allowed your senses to manufacture it (something similar to those who fall over during evangelical healing sessions or begin to (allegedly) speak in tongues at Pentecostal services)

So that's at least six possibilities, five of which are mundane, and this is ignoring the possibility that you're having us on. There may well be other possibilities I have missed.

Which of the listed possibilities do you think is most likely? Which is the least likely?

------

Regarding your prayer mother's comments about 9/11 being retribution for America's lavish lifestyle: Does she apply this kind of thinking consistently?

China is a rising economic and military power; is its success a result of God's approval?

Just before 911 the Dow Jones Industrial Average was near the all time high (up to that date). Did God love the US then and then hate the US just a month or two later?

Did God decide that the hard working, non-lavish lifestyle living people who died on 911 needed to be used as the example; was he incapable of targeting the people with the problem or did he not care enough to protect the innocent?

Within three months of 911, the US had the Taliban on the run; did God suddenly like us again?

What of the 7/7 attacks in London? Did God hate them, too?

How do we know it is Yahweh who is angry? Could it not be Allah who is angry that the US is predominately Christian?

I could go on, but I'll stop. The questions aren't rhetorical; in this context, they need to be asked and answered.

 

[Stray Cat]

There is a muscle memory response that could possibly explain the jacket pull.
In the same way that if you try to lift your arms whilst getting someone to hold them by your side (so you can't move them), when you relax and your helper lets go, your arms will seem to rise by themselves. Depending on the position you were sitting or standing in whilst at the alter, your back could have done something similar and sprang in to action as you walked away back to your seat, or it could have more simply been a pulled muscle.

But really as Garrette has pointed out, there are many possible mundane explanations.
I doubt you'll be able to settle on which one fits the bill (no one could posit them all as we weren't there, so it could be a mundane explanation that no one can think of).

Bearing in mind the setting you were in, your expectation of something mystical/magical happening would have been more heightened and therefore you would be more likely to interpret anything as non mundane. This is not a criticism, it's a natural occurrence of human psychology.

 

[MG1962]

Few weeks after, we had another teaching in the same place, it was a discussion about evilness in the world and how we tend to see only bad things in the world.
The "spiritual mother" said that Satan tries to make us think that only bad things happen in the world.
It was the period soon after September 11.
She said: "for example, some people do not understand why tragedies such as September 11 happen, but there is a reason for that.."
And she tried to explain that American people lived too lavishly and that somehow September 11 was a "reply" from God to this.
The week after I stopped to go to the meetings.

I have to admit, I am glad you moved on from this group. The sort of explanation for the causes of Sept 11 seem out of step with most of the things I have encountered in Catholic teachings

 

[John Mekki]

Welcome to the forum, John.

I'll split my response in two, but first let me ask what a "pretender" is in this context. I Googled and found nothing that fits the context. I was raised Catholic and have never heard the term in the way in which your friend used it. Did your or she perhaps mean "protector" instead?

-------

In regard to whether the jacket pull was a mystic experience, let's list the possibilities:

1. It was a mystic experience in which some non-corporeal being pulled the jacket

2. The girl who responded half-joking was, indeed, joking and did the pulling

3. Someone else did the pulling and you only responded when you had stepped far enough away that it seemed they were too distant to have done it

4. You caught your jacket on something such as the end of a pew

5. The hem of the jacket caught on something else on your person such as a pen in your back pocket and "pulled" when you leaned forward and unstuck it

6. The pull didn't happen at all but your communal feelings were heightened and allowed your senses to manufacture it (something similar to those who fall over during evangelical healing sessions or begin to (allegedly) speak in tongues at Pentecostal services)

So that's at least six possibilities, five of which are mundane, and this is ignoring the possibility that you're having us on. There may well be other possibilities I have missed.

Which of the listed possibilities do you think is most likely? Which is the least likely?

------

Regarding your prayer mother's comments about 9/11 being retribution for America's lavish lifestyle: Does she apply this kind of thinking consistently?

China is a rising economic and military power; is its success a result of God's approval?

Just before 911 the Dow Jones Industrial Average was near the all time high (up to that date). Did God love the US then and then hate the US just a month or two later?

Did God decide that the hard working, non-lavish lifestyle living people who died on 911 needed to be used as the example; was he incapable of targeting the people with the problem or did he not care enough to protect the innocent?

Within three months of 911, the US had the Taliban on the run; did God suddenly like us again?

What of the 7/7 attacks in London? Did God hate them, too?

How do we know it is Yahweh who is angry? Could it not be Allah who is angry that the US is predominately Christian?

I could go on, but I'll stop. The questions aren't rhetorical; in this context, they need to be asked and answered.

Thanks for the welcome.
I am obviously aware that the explanation that the spiritual mother gave us makes no sense.
This is why I left the group.

I am also aware that there are many possible explanations for what happened with my jacket.
However, in my life such "pull" never happened again, and as far as I know, never happened before.
It only happened in that very moment.
So, how can we explain that?
Sure, we can say that people, during such "religious" moments, may be more easily victims of auto-suggestion or being psychologically influenced by their own phantasies or other`s.
However, I still remember that "pull" and it felt quite real.

And I am not the only one who had such experiences.
I know other people as well.
One priest who had a broken rosary with him, asked God for a sign.
One day he found his rosary fixed.
Again, maybe someone fixed him the rosary during the night, but this explanation does not make much sense, does it?

About "pretender", sorry I was meaning "admirer".

 

[Stray Cat]

I am also aware that there are many possible explanations for what happened with my jacket.
However, in my life such "pull" never happened again, and as far as I know, never happened before.
It only happened in that very moment.
So, how can we explain that?

If the "pull" was a unique response to a set of unique circumstances, why would anyone expect it would happen elsewhere at another time with a different set of cicumstances?

Sure, we can say that people, during such "religious" moments, may be more easily victims of auto-suggestion or being psychologically influenced by their own phantasies or other`s.
However, I still remember that "pull" and it felt quite real.

The thing about when people's perception is skewed and misfiring is that it is impossible for them to discern the misperception as the whole of our universe is filtered through our individual perceptions. That's what makes the objectively testable scientific method essential in finding stuff out to determine physical reality.

And I am not the only one who had such experiences.
I know other people as well.
One priest who had a broken rosary with him, asked God for a sign.
One day he found his rosary fixed.
Again, maybe someone fixed him the rosary during the night, but this explanation does not make much sense, does it?

People claim all sorts of weirdness... It is never proven under objectively testable conditions to be anything other than misperception or fraud.

 

[John Mekki]

If the "pull" was a unique response to a set of unique circumstances, why would anyone expect it would happen elsewhere at another time with a different set of cicumstances?

Mm..
I do not see how such circumstances can be deemed as so "unique".
I was just walking around some people, something that I do every day.
However, it has never happened so far that I felt my jacket pulled.

People claim all sorts of weirdness... It is never proven under objectively testable conditions to be anything other than misperception or fraud.

Well, assuming for a second that miracles are "real", you would not assume that God makes them happen during objectively testable conditions, right?

 

[Stray Cat]

Mm..
I do not see how such circumstances can be deemed as so "unique".
I was just walking around some people, something that I do every day.
However, it has never happened so far that I felt my jacket pulled.

It is possible for one to pull a particular muscle only once during their lives due to the unique circumstances of the muscle being in the correct place at the correct tension to be pulled. It is also possible for a muscle pull to not be noticed so much in other circumstances (ie: on a busy tube train etc.)
The combination of your circumstances makes it less likely to happen to you again (or if it does/did you wouldn't notice).

Well, assuming for a second that miracles are "real", you would not assume that God makes them happen during objectively testable conditions, right?

Sorry, we're not here to make assumptions about things which have never been proven to exist, existing.

 

[Croydon Bob]

Mm..
I do not see how such circumstances can be deemed as so "unique".
I was just walking around some people, something that I do every day.
However, it has never happened so far that I felt my jacket pulled.

Well, assuming for a second that miracles are "real", you would not assume that God makes them happen during objectively testable conditions, right?

I have had one or two odd "miracle"-type events in my life but I'm not a Christian and was not raised a Christian. Hindus, Muslims, Animists, etc, all report miracles, are theses all genuine? Are all the different gods all providing miracles?

And if a god is going to perform a miracle, then why tugging your jacket? Why not feeding the starving of Africa? That is a miracle that could convert me. Is it really more likely that a "supreme being" tugged your jacket or that it is some sort of misunderstanding on your part?

 

[Resume]

Mm..
I do not see how such circumstances can be deemed as so "unique".
I was just walking around some people, something that I do every day.
However, it has never happened so far that I felt my jacket pulled.

Until the first time it happened.

I've had a muscle spasm that felt as if I were being tapped on the shoulder.

Unless you think it was a ghost.

 

[carlitos]

I was part of a Catholic praying group, a very serious one indeed, that gathered every Saturday night in a religious community with about twenty other people, mainly young ones.
The usual night was all about praying, listening to the teachings of the "spiritual mother" of the community, and "adoration", which was a special time in which people stayed in silence and meditation in front of an icon.Sometimes, after that we had a small party and then came back home around 23.

So far nothing extremely particular, except for what happened one night, that I may remember for the rest of my life.
That night, after the usual praying time, there was a time of "adoration" in which we had to go in front of altar and meditate for a few seconds on front of a picture of the Holy Lady and then come back to our places.
After I did just that, while coming back to my place, I felt like someone pulling my jacket with some strenght.

...


The week after I stopped to go to the meetings.

Mm..
I do not see how such circumstances can be deemed as so "unique".
I was just walking around some people, something that I do every day.However, it has never happened so far that I felt my jacket pulled.

Do you see the difference between the two stories above? One puts you in an intense meditative (suggestive) state and one is you walking around every day.

 

[23_Tauri]

Mm..
I do not see how such circumstances can be deemed as so "unique".
I was just walking around some people, something that I do every day.
However, it has never happened so far that I felt my jacket pulled.

Every circumstance is unique; it's a one-off, unique set of circumstances. I didn't know it had a name, but I know of, and have experienced, the type of 'tug' that Stray Cat is describing. Sometimes I sit for a long in one position, concentrating. When I move, the body tries to compensate for that movement. We might experience this as cramps, or numbness. The way our brains interpret signals from our muscles is quite interesting.

Garette's post is very informative, in my opinion. I think he's done excellently in explaining to us how this sort of event can occur, and why we then go on to create a story around them.

Personally, I think you might have imagined this, due to your heightened and suggestive state at the time. I'm sorry if that's sounds patronising, it's not meant to be; this sort of thing happens to everyone.

Well, assuming for a second that miracles are "real", you would not assume that God makes them happen during objectively testable conditions, right?

Why would anyone assume that miracles are real, John?

 

[John Mekki]

Every circumstance is unique; it's a one-off, unique set of circumstances. I didn't know it had a name, but I know of, and have experienced, the type of 'tug' that Stray Cat is describing. Sometimes I sit for a long in one position, concentrating. When I move, the body tries to compensate for that movement. We might experience this as cramps, or numbness. The way our brains interpret signals from our muscles is quite interesting.

Then why I never had the feeling of being "pulled" in any other occasion?
Why it did happen only in *that* occasion?

Why would anyone assume that miracles are real, John?

Well, there are millions (billions) who do so..

 

[godless dave]

Then why I never had the feeling of being "pulled" in any other occasion?
Why it did happen only in *that* occasion?

You remember it that way because that occasion already had significance associated with it in your mind.

 

[carlitos]

I love it when I think I make an obvious point and it gets ignored. Makes posting here feel so worthwhile.

Ahywhoo, when you pray to an icon, God pulls your jacket. If you pray to a crucifix, does he pull down a sock or something?

 

[Lanzy]

So John it appears you have already decided you have experienced the miracle of "jacket pulling". I would never try to convince you that you have not. However it is unlikely that you will ever convince anyone here that you have.

I do hope you will stick around long enough to read opinions here and give them some thought instead of dismissing them.

 

[23_Tauri]

Then why I never had the feeling of being "pulled" in any other occasion?
Why it did happen only in *that* occasion?

Because it just so happened that it did. Why is that unusual? Every situation we ever find ourselves in is unique, even if it's something we do every day.

Here's an example. I do yoga every day. Every day for eight years. But one day I was in a posture that a do every day (four times a day in fact) and this time I pulled my hamstring. Pop! Did God hate me that day?

Well, there are millions (billions) who do so..

And they are correct because...?

Belief in something, no matter how many people believe in it, does not make it true. Many, many people used to believe the world was flat. Was that true merely because of the sheer numbers of people who believed it?

Believing in something only because lots of other people do is known as the argumentum ad populum. As Wikipedia informs us: "a fallacious argument that concludes a proposition to be true because many or most people believe it. In other words, the basic idea of the argument is: "If many believe so, it is so."

 

[SonOfLaertes]

So your mystic experience boils down to a prank an 8-year old would pull? Was the "Holy Lady" laughing into the back of her hand and poking Jesus in the ribs as you walked away perplexed?


I've got to say, "miracles" and "visions" seem to have degraded significantly since biblical times. Holy Spirits have apparently become too bored and disinterested to put any real though into interactions with us mortals.

 

[Stray Cat]

Then why I never had the feeling of being "pulled" in any other occasion?
Why it did happen only in *that* occasion?

Look at it this way;
How many times have you been in church or prayer group or meditation and it hasn't happened... It's really no big deal, some people pull muscles getting on a horse (even though they have never pulled a muscle whilst getting on a horse before... why only on that occasion?)
There is nothing remarkable about it.

And really "why" it happened is a moot point, as we don't even know what or even if it happened at all, but to ascribe some mysterious cause to something that can be adequately explained by mundane mechanisms shows your emotional investment in your story and quite clearly shows you have no real interest in finding out what it actually was... but only to attempt to confirm your blind belief - which won't happen on a sceptic forum.

Well, there are millions (billions) who do so..

There are millions of children who believe in Santa Claus... does that make him real?

 

[Garrette]

Thanks for the welcome.
I am obviously aware that the explanation that the spiritual mother gave us makes no sense.
This is why I left the group.

I am also aware that there are many possible explanations for what happened with my jacket.

Then answering the question I asked is the next step. Which possibility do you consider most likely? Which least likely?

However, in my life such "pull" never happened again, and as far as I know, never happened before.
It only happened in that very moment.
So, how can we explain that?

1. You don't know it only happened in that moment. This has been explained more than once.

2. So what if it was? You have already said you left the group because the prayer mother's comments regarding 911 were nonsense. Is she a fraud in that regard but an actual mystic when it comes to jacket-pulling?

3. As has been pointed out, your description has changed. Was it unique or an every day event? If unique, the atmosphere could explain it and hence there is no mystery. If not unique, the law of large numbers and the fact that coincidences happen could explain it and hence there is no mystery.

Sure, we can say that people, during such "religious" moments, may be more easily victi ms of auto-suggestion or being psychologically influenced by their own phantasies or other`s.

Yes, we can.

However, I still remember that "pull" and it felt quite real.

In other words, your memory, which you have demonstrated is malleable, is exactly like everyone else's and gives no cause to assume anything mystical.

And I am not the only one who had such experiences.
I know other people as well.
One priest who had a broken rosary with him, asked God for a sign.
One day he found his rosary fixed.
Again, maybe someone fixed him the rosary during the night, but this explanation does not make much sense, does it?

Why doesn't it? And is it the only mundane explanation you can think of?

About "pretender", sorry I was meaning "admirer".

Okay. Thanks.