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Mystery for physicians, neurologists and physiologists ( and for anybody else )

Matteo Martini

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Hi all.
My name is Matteo Martini and I would like to present you some phenomena which may have some rational and medical explanations even if, at the moment, I can not find any.
I hope that what I will describe may interest many people in this forum, but I think that mainly physicians and even more neurologists and physiologists can give an explanation of the phenomena I will soon describe.
Some time ago, I have posted in the JREF forum a presentation of my work about the six " seers " of Medjugorje, the six people of a small village in Bosnia who claim they see the Holy Lady regularly.

A committee of specialists, which included two physiologists, one head physician and other fourteen specialists performed some medical tests one the six seers, and described this tests in some books I have read.

Now, some of the tests they did leave me with some questions I would like to be able to answer.

I will use the medical terms that the doctors use which may be familiar to physicians and physiologists.

The committee claims that, among other things:

1) " .. We all know how very annoying a “small object” in an eye can be: not only does it annoy us but it also provokes rubbing of the eyes in an attempt to remove it (behavioural reactions), blinking (blink reflex), tearing (tearing reflex) and, without perceiving it, provokes numerous psycho-galvanic reactions in us. In Medjugorje, one of the investigators [ the doctors of the medical committee who were doing medical tests on the seers ] , during an ecstasy of Jakov [ one of the " seers " who claim to see the Holy Lady regularly ], stimulated with a nylon hair (aesthesiometer of Cocher and Bonnet) an eye of the seer without provoking any of the three types of reactions "

2) " Insensibility to pain was demonstrated with dolorific stimuli provided by an instrument called an “ electronic algometer", which consists of a small silver piston (similar to the push-button of a ballpoint pen). When they wanted to test the subject's sensibility to pain, it was pressed on any point of the skin so as to make it re-enter its lodging for long enough to activate a switch which heated it to approximately 50° C ( 122 °F ), a temperature moderately painful but not injurious in the short term. This stimulation made in a state of wakefulness, for example on one hand, provoked a behavioural reaction consisting of the withdrawal of the limb in about one quarter of a second (behavioral reflex reaction of defense). In ecstasy [ the moment in which one of the seerrs claims to see the Holy Lady ] the small piston could be held on the limb for two to four seconds without any hint of withdrawal, and also, without any psychogalvanic reflex. This demonstrated that the subjects did not feel the pain "

Any rational explanation for this two phenomena ?

The resume of the works of the medical committee can be found here: http://www.aboutmedjugorje.com/Second_committee_on_Medjugorje.html
 
So, let me see if I have this right. A group of individuals have been found to have dulled responses to stimuli when they are in a trance-like state?

The problem with pain is that it is a symptom of a stimulus and not a sign. In other words, it is unquantifiable; the individual experiencing the sensation cannot compare their pain with another's to form a significant quantification, and an outside party cannot sense the individual's pain, hence cannot measure it. Relying on reflexes can make it into a visible response, but there is still a problem in that pain seems to be sujective, and relies on a number of variables.

All of that aside, pain is physiological response which the body can control. Being neurological, there are a number of inhibitory factors which can control the extent to which an individual senses a stimulus. Adrenalin, for example, can cause the release of neuroinhibitors (q: is it an inhibitor itself? I can't remember).

It is perfectly rational, and even qualifiable, that a person can be in an altered state of awareness and not sense a given stimulus. Hell, if you come down to it, that's what sleep is.

Attributing it to supernatural causes is where the nut-case foolishness arises. Religious fervour, however, is a common form of altering a state of awareness.

Athon
 
Matteo Martini said:
.....during an ecstasy of Jakov [ one of the " seers " who claim to see the Holy Lady regularly ], stimulated with a nylon hair...
Click to expand...

I have an aquaintance who went into ecstacy with regular visits to a certain type of lady. However, he preferred them shaven.
 
" A group of individuals have been found to have dulled responses to stimuli when they are in a trance-like state? "
Yes. Moreover, speaking with one of the scientists that performed this exams, he said that they also find out that the dolorific stimulus arrives to the brain ( neurologists can see if the stimulus arrives to the brain, I think using EEG but I am not sure ) but the person in ecstasy just shows no sign of pain.

" The problem with pain is that it is a symptom of a stimulus and not a sign. In other words, it is unquantifiable; the individual experiencing the sensation cannot compare their pain with another's to form a significant quantification, and an outside party cannot sense the individual's pain, hence cannot measure it. Relying on reflexes can make it into a visible response, but there is still a problem in that pain seems to be sujective, and relies on a number of variables. "
Sorry, maybe you are a physician while I am not .
Could you please explain me this with more down-to-earth words ?

" All of that aside, pain is physiological response which the body can control "
Well, I tried to do the experiment on my body, I heated a metal plate to 40ºC and put it on my wrist, it was very hot and I could not stand the pain for more than 2 seconds.
Then I tried to heat it to 45ºC and it was even worse, I just took away the wrist when the metal plate touched my wrist.
Dr. Margnelli, one of the neurologists of the committee, explained to me that they put a metal plate at 45ºC and even 50ºC on the wrist of Vicka and she did not move.
They left the plate on her wrist for more than 40 seconds, according to dr. Margnelli.

" It is perfectly rational, and even qualifiable, that a person can be in an altered state of awareness and not sense a given stimulus "
In theory this is possible, but is there any real-world example of this ?

" Attributing it to supernatural causes is where the nut-case foolishness arises "
I am not attribuiting it to any supernatural cause, I am just requesting for help to find out evidence for a possible rational explanation of the phenomenon.
 
Matteo Martini said:
I heated a metal plate to 40ºC and put it on my wrist, it was very hot and I could not stand the pain for more than 2 seconds.
Then I tried to heat it to 45ºC and it was even worse, I just took away the wrist when the metal plate touched my wrist.
Click to expand...
Er, 40<sup>o</sup>C is just above blood heat, in fact attainable blood heat during a fever. 45<sup>o</sup>C is only a little warmer. If my food was served at that temperature, I'd put it back in the microwave to warm it up.

Rolfe.
 
Being serious for a change, I think you want to dig out details about Hysterical Conversion Reactions/Disorders -
try googling for it.


Abstract
Vuilleumier, P., C. Chicherio, F. Assal, S. Schwartz, D. Slosman & T. Landis (2001) Functional neuroanatomical correlates of hysterical sensorimotor loss. Brain, 124, 1077-1090.

Hysterical conversion disorders refer to functional neurological deficits such as paralysis, anaesthesia or blindness not caused by organic damage but associated with emotional “psychogenic” disturbances. Symptoms are not intentionally feigned by the patients whose handicap often outweighs possible short-term gains. Neural concomitants of their altered experience of sensation and volition are still not known. We assessed brain functional activation in seven patients with unilateral hysterical sensorimotor loss during passive vibratory stimulation of both hands, when their deficit was present and 2-4 months later when they had recovered. Single photon emission computerized tomography using 99m Tc-ECD revealed a consistent degree of regional cerebral blood flow in the thalamus and basal ganglia contralateral to the deficit. Independent parametric mapping and principal components statistical analyses converged to show that such subcortical asymmetries were present in each subject. Importantly, contralateral basal ganglia and thalamic hypoactivation resolved after recovery. Furthermore, lower activation in contralateral caudate during hysterical conversion symptoms predicted poor recovery at follow-up. These results suggest that hysterical conversion deficits may entail a functional disorder in striatothalamocortical circuits controlling sensorimotor function and voluntary behavior. Basal ganglia, especially the caudate nucleus, might be particularly well situated to modulate motor processes based on emotional and situational cues from the limbic system. Remarkably, the same subcortical premotor circuits are also involved in unilateral motor neglect after organic neurological damage, where voluntary limb use may fail despite a lack of true paralysis and intact primary sensorimotor pathways. These findings provide novel constraints for a modern psychobiological theory of hysteria.
 
Rolfe

Er, 40oC is just above blood heat, in fact attainable blood heat during a fever. 45oC is only a little warmer. If my food was served at that temperature, I'd put it back in the microwave to warm it up.
Click to expand...

Yes, but the metal conduces heat very well.
Just try to heat a metal plate to 45ºC ( that is, 113ºF ), or even less than that and then put it on your wrist to see if you can stand the pain for more than one second.
 
Yes. Moreover, speaking with one of the scientists that performed this exams, he said that they also find out that the dolorific stimulus arrives to the brain ( neurologists can see if the stimulus arrives to the brain, I think using EEG but I am not sure ) but the person in ecstasy just shows no sign of pain.
Click to expand...

Pain results from the stimulation of a particular type of sensory nerve. It gets taken to a particular area of the brain via any one number of pathways, where the brain processes it and it can ellicit a response through a motor neuron. In either the brain (or, more commonly, the spinal cord) the nervous stimulation can be overridden. The message can be stopped at any point, the brain no exception. Hence you could use something like a PET scan to see active areas of the brain when pain is caused, and still see areas light up, but the subject would not interpret it as pain. They've done this a number of times when testing patients under hypnosis; pain is recognized, but it is not associated with a response.

Sorry, maybe you are a physician while I am not . Could you please explain me this with more down-to-earth words ?
Click to expand...

Sorry. I'm not a physician either; just a science teacher with a medical science background.

If an individual says they can feel pain, how do we know they're not lying? There are no real tests per se that can detect pain from an objective point of view. The best we can do is see if the stimulus corresponds with an area of the brain lighting up in a PET scan, and even that cannot be measured as an 'amount' of pain. Why does one man scream when he is jabbed with a needle, while another man merely winces? Pain itself is a perception, not a physical 'thing' we can measure. Hence pain is a tricky area to research.

Well, I tried to do the experiment on my body, I heated a metal plate to 40ºC and put it on my wrist, it was very hot and I could not stand the pain for more than 2 seconds.
Then I tried to heat it to 45ºC and it was even worse, I just took away the wrist when the metal plate touched my wrist.
Click to expand...

As Rolfe said, 40.C is not very hot. Pain typically begins to register at about 60.C, because that is the temperature proteins start to break apart (hence when damage starts). In your sleep, you don't feel a person touching you (usually). This, an altered state of awareness, has changed your perception of a stimulus. Pain is a stimulus, hence can also be avoided. Luckily we have mechanisms that wake us up when we feel pain in our sleep; although many people will sleep through even that. I know myself I can tolerate more pain when I'm in a good mood, or hyperactive, than when I'm depressed. That's another example.

I am not attribuiting it to any supernatural cause, I am just requesting for help to find out evidence for a possible rational explanation of the phenomenon.
Click to expand...

Sorry mate, I wasn't trying to make that assumption. I was making a statement more than anything.

I hope this helps.

Athon
 
Re: Rolfe

Matteo Martini said:
Yes, but the metal conduces heat very well.
Just try to heat a metal plate to 45ºC ( that is, 113ºF ), or even less than that and then put it on your wrist to see if you can stand the pain for more than one second.
Click to expand...
How do you measure the temperature of the plate?

Rolfe.
 
Deetee,
thanks for the informative answer !!
You seem to know something about psychopathology, maybe you are a psychiatrist ?
However, as far as I know, assuming that the six seers were hysterical was one of the hypothesis on the table.
But two of the medical committees stated, at the end of their works, that they ruled out the hypothesis of such people being hysterical ( the link to the work is here: www.aboutmedjugorje.com ).
Do not ask me how they ruled out this hypothesis but is there any test to find out if a person is hysterical or not ?

But let me consider the hypothesis of hysteria for one moment.
As far as I know, hysteria is a serious psychiatric problem, which involves particular individuals.
Now, the six seers look, talk and feel as 100 % normal, I have seen one of them directly and the others on TV during interviews, etc.
They do not have that way of talking that sometimes fanatics have.
Moreover, they are all ( except one ) married and they have children, one of them, Ivan, is married to an ex-Miss Massachussets and drives a nice car.
This may be seen as an interest on earthly pleasures, but I usually thought at hysterics like fanatics that pray all the day in a monastery, not like a normal guy in a suit married with a work.
This means nothing, I know, still I fail to see them as fanatics.

In addition to that, they are six, can they all get hysterics, like one sees the other saying that she see the Holy Lady and start saying that too ?

Finally, they have their " visions " at a specific time daily. Can an hysterical unconsciously decide to have a vision every day at the same hour ?
 
As Rolfe said, 40.C is not very hot. Pain typically begins to register at about 60.C, because that is the temperature proteins start to break apart (hence when damage starts
Click to expand...
If we assume that they are hysterical, then I do not know if they feel the pain.
But, for " normal " people a metal plate heated at 45 degrees Clasius in painful on the wrist.
I saw this even at the World Skeptic Congress in Abano Terme where I also met James Randi.
In a room there were many tricks about paranormality and in one side they explained how you can walk on burning coal ( in Italian is " carboni ardenti " ).
There was a metal plate with a temperature measured at less than 45 degrees Celsius, a piece of wood heated at ( as far as I remember ) more than 60 degrees Celsius and they invited you to put the two things over your body.
With the metal plate you felt pain, with the wood heated at a higher temperature you did not.
The whole experiment was to show the properties of thermal conductivity and to explain why, if you walk on burning coal ( bad translation, I know ) you do not get your feet burnt.
I tried the experiment myself and the metal palte on my wrist was very painful.

They've done this a number of times when testing patients under hypnosis; pain is recognized, but it is not associated with a response
Click to expand...
As far as I understood, the committee claims that there are many similarities between " ecstasy " and " hypnosis ", but the main difference is that, while under hypnosis the result of the nervous impulse does not actually arrive to the brain, under " ecstasy " it gets there but the person does not behave as he/she was in pain.
I am not 100% sure of this, however.
 
Hi Matteo,

I was also in Abano Terme for the World Skeptics Congress. I wonder if we met?

The experiment with the heated objects was very good. I think I remember there was a digital display of the current temperature, but I do not know how it was measured. Unfortunately I do not remember the temperature of the metal plate, except that it was lower than the wooden object.

Water, I believe, is good at transferring heat to other objects. My shower has a stop at 38° Celcius in order to prevent people from getting scalded. However, I know I can override the stop and set the temperature a little higher without problems. But the water definitely feels very hot then. My guess is that the algometer with a setting of 50° would produce some pain, just like it is claimed in your source.

But as pointed out by others here, pain is an individual thing, and just like religious fanatics in India can mutilate themselves in various ways without feeling pain, I am sure that fanatics in a holy trance can do the same in Medjugorje. If the medical team wanted to prove that the Holy Virgin really turned up there, I am afraid that this is not evidence of anything else than that fanatics can be quite insensitive!
 
Matteo Martini said:
" It is perfectly rational, and even qualifiable, that a person can be in an altered state of awareness and not sense a given stimulus "

In theory this is possible, but is there any real-world example of this ?
Click to expand...

Sure: Anesthesia.
 
" I was also in Abano Terme for the World Skeptics Congress. I wonder if we met? "
There was a Danish guy in the chair close to mine.

" The experiment with the heated objects was very good. I think I remember there was a digital display of the current temperature, but I do not know how it was measured. Unfortunately I do not remember the temperature of the metal plate, except that it was lower than the wooden object "
It was about 42 degrees for the metal plate and more than 60 for the wood

" Water, I believe, is good at transferring heat to other objects "
Nope. Look here: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/4_429.html
Iron conductivity is 100 more than water and about 500 times more than wood

" But as pointed out by others here, pain is an individual thing, and just like religious fanatics in India can mutilate themselves in various ways without feeling pain "
Do they feel no pain or can they bear the pain ?
Any evidence you can put an hair in the eye to one of those Indians while he does not move ?

" If the medical team wanted to prove that the Holy Virgin really turned up there, "
They did not want to prove that, just do some tests on the seers.
 
Matteo Martini said:
Yes, but the metal conduces heat very well.
Just try to heat a metal plate to 45ºC ( that is, 113ºF ), or even less than that and then put it on your wrist to see if you can stand the pain for more than one second.
Click to expand...

Well, once I read about a contraception method that involved bathing the scrotum in water at 115 degrees F for fifteen minutes, based on the idea that heat reduces sperm production. I'm an experimental kind of guy, so I had to try it. I found that fifteen minutes was a bit much, but I could do five pretty easily. No significant reduction in sperm production, though.

A hot bath is generally about 110 degrees F, and I've been known to soak in one.

Maybe you're just a bit of a wuss when it comes to pain.
 
Every single morning I steam milk for my latte in a steel pitcher to 140-150F, or 60-65C. I do this w/o a thermometer by holding the side of the pitcher and stopping when it is almost painful. Metal at 40C is nothing.
 
Reserach on the web

Some research on the web:

http://hendrix.imm.dtu.dk/services/jerne/brede/WOEXT_207.html " Hot pain. 46 degree celsius "
" Attended heat pain on right hand. 46 to 49 degrees Celsius "
" Hot pain in right hand. 47 degrees hot pain on the palmar surface of the right hand "

http://stroke.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/30/10/2223
" Pain perception could be elicited in both patients by increasing the temperature, with a reproducible threshold of 47°C to 49°C "

http://www.medoc-web.com/trials.html
" Heat induced pain (HP), threshold around 45°C "

Seems that all the web-sites about thermal pain threshold speak about pain temperatures from 44 to 49 Celsius ( that is 111 to 120 fahrenheit ) ..
 
I like hot baths 50°C to 60°C. Sure I have to be careful of dehydration and overheating but I drink enough before, while and after taking a bath.



Story: My little brother is very sensive to heat. On one day the decided to take bath that I was filling.......the poor basterd.
 
More evidence from the web

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/011027-zap.htm
" AFRL says that the 3-millimetre wavelength radiation penetrates only 0.3 millimetres into the skin, rapidly heating the surface above the 45 degrees C pain threshold. At 50 degrees C, they say the pain reflex makes people pull away automatically in less than a second - it's said to feel like fleetingly touching a hot light bulb. Someone would have to stay in the beam for 250 seconds before it burnt the skin, the lab says, giving "ample margin between intolerable pain and causing a burn".

http://hw.haifa.ac.il/publications2003.html
" a lower pain threshold (42.2 degrees C [2.5] vs 43.6 degrees C [1.9], P = 0.006), a lower unpleasantness threshold (40.2 degrees C [2.9] vs 41.7 degrees C [2.3], P = 0.023), a higher magnitude estimation of suprathreshold pain at 47 degrees C "

http://www.mdvu.org/emove/article.asp?ID=760
" Patients reported pain at an average of 44.0 degrees C, versus 46.1 C for controls "

Til now I have linked six web sources about the same topic and they all speak about pain at temperatures from 44 degrees to 50 degrees celsius
 
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