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My experience with adolescents and skepticism.

Hourglassmemory

Critical Thinker
H
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
315
Being 17 years old I still have to go to high school and find myself surrounded by people of the same age or a bit older or a bit younger.
Now we had to do this presentation on Powerpoint about any subject we liked.
The group I was in, 4 people, chose supernatural phenomena but in particular 4 fields of the supernatural.
Occult(tarot, ESP, etc.), Ghosts, Cryptozoology and Ufo's.
I was doing the Ufo part of the presentation and it was actually the biggest one of all the presentations, not just from our group, because of the pictures.
The group did tend towards showing a sample of claims from believers and cited a few psychologists to give the skeptical view. They went for a balanced presentation of the subject.
However, I went for the "Skeptical only" side and tried to "debunk" two subjects that ufologists and pseudohistorians use many times to support their belief in Ufo's. I did not chose stuff like roswell and such because those involved the military and as we all know, once you start tlaking about conspiracy theories, you'll never get to the bottom of it, due to their unfalsifiability.


I started by talking about the probability of life out there....Drake's Equation, Fermi's paradox, and questioned why would a more advanced civilization visit a less advanced civilization other than motivated by curiosity?
Enslave Mankind? Ruin our crops to say they were there?
And then I jumped to the crop circles. And after that I went to paintings with Ufo's in them.
the thing I just want to share with you skeptics, and with Randi and everybody like him, is that, our group was the one that got a little bit more interaction with the audience, composed of the rest of the class and the teacher. The other groups worked on subjects like Addictions and the Olympic Games.
As I nervously (as always) talked about crop circles the obvious question was brought up by a girl

"But they can't do that in one night"
And I gave an answer basing myself on this website from the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/east/series10/week3_crop_circles.shtml

Something I regret not mentioning is that when people do BIG crop circles or complex images they usually leave them unfinished for the next day, giving the impression that it's impossible to do in one night. Big pictures are humanly impossible to be created by few individuals in one night, don't get me wrong.
But it's not like they're discovered right away.

To my surprise she did not argue beyond that example from the BBC.
I dunno if she got convinced or not. A bit more time with her would surely get her convinced.
But I had to move on!
I then started to talk about their origins, the pamphlet that many like to argue as being the first account of a crop circle.
I then started showing how simple they were in the beggining and how they gradually began to get bigger and bigger. People actually giggled because of how I was doing it. I was saying it "And more, and more, and more" as the images were showing up. they laughed as they saw that there seemd to be no end to it.
"And obvisouly one had to set a record" I said as I showed the biggest one yet recorded. Everybody laughed.

I don't know if people laughed on how I was presenting it, because I was a bit nervous and talked fast and presented the believers arguemnts as if I didn't have patience for it and went straight to the debunking or if they laughed because these things didn't stop growing in size.

I then showed some publicity made by this famous group CircleMakers, which makes publicity for companies that seem to be harder to do than circles and pyramids.

I then jumped to the Paintings with Ufos
I presented a first painting, put it in context, talked a bit on what the whole picture was about and the Ufo turned out to be nothing more than a cardinal hat.
I then asked if it was a hat or a Ufo, everybody said something in the likes of "It's obvisouly a hat".
I showed a few more the same way, a few more laughs (including the teacher) and ended my presentation.

I still don't know if they were laughing at me, because of how fast I was going due to my nervousness or at the believer's claims when they were showed what those things are when put into context.
I obvisouly prefer the latter.

Then came cryptozoology and this one got a guy to say that they had already searched Loch Ness for Nessie and that it had been conclusive that there was no Nessie.
They filled in the gaps in our presentation with more facts and research form their general knowledge.
The guys and girls who intervened watch a lot of Discovery Channel and National Geographic and History Channel. And they practice sports. They dont' look like nerds at all.
A girl openly, and loudly, says she's super skeptical about these things.
The occult thing also made a lot of people to say "Oh but this experiment was done and they didn't find anything" And the issue of cousins being able to send mental messages to each other was also broguht up and discussed for a bit. And we talked about subjectivity also.

Everybody seemed to be very skeptical about the things AFTER I, at least, showed them the evidence.

I was really surprised in their behaviour towards these issues.

I just wanted to say that if I were to talk with them and show them more beliefs and the facts that 'debunk those beliefs' they would surely agree with me.
I live in Europe, Portugal, just so that Randi and Michael Shermer know they're having an influence on the other side of the planet. thank God for the Internet!

Also, I know this was a big message, but, do you think skepticism on these matters is rising amongst teenagers? Is it because there are more tv-shows and articles that explain this besides the woo woo way?
 
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Well, first off I applaud your efforts. When I was 17 I was smoking pot and indulging in all matters of woo. Sounds like you're a jump ahead of most of us.

Now, I'm not an expert in adolescents (6 year olds I can tell you pretty much everything about) but it wouldn't surprise me if we see more skeptics. Back into he stone ages, or at least before the internet, there would be a hundred books on UFOs and not a single book against it, it seemed. Actually, Asimov and Sagan were around but there were only so many topics they could cover.

Today? Hell, that internet is a great tool for debunking.

I also think that part of being a teenager is to rebel against whatever establishment one encounters. With the amount of woo of the current generation, I imagine being a skeptic seems somewhat radical...truly we live in a Bizzaro world.
 
Hourglassmemory said:
Also, I know this was a big message, but, do you think skepticism on these matters is rising amongst teenagers? Is it because there are more tv-shows and articles that explain this besides the woo woo way?
Click to expand...

Firstly, good effort, it does sound like they were laughing with you rather than at you. However, I'd be cautious about drawing any conclusions about the general level of skepticism. The trouble is that many people who believe in the paranormal only believe in some things. UFOs, Nessie and crop circles are some of the less popular ideas around at the moment, so it isn't that surprising that people would generally agree with you. What would have happened if you'd tried to debunk ghosts or psychics? I bet the reaction would have been very different.

I started a thread about a documentary on crop circles on UK Skeptics] a while ago. It's fascinating stuff really. Some people actually believe that crop circles are paranormal even though they make them themselves. Bizzare beliefs like this will also be in the minority, it's the ones that sound vaguely plausible that people tend to believe in.
 
That's very very cool.

What lasting impact you've had nobody can say... but the impact for you I hope has been very positive.

There is hope - in Portugal at least :)

(Excellent English BTW)
 
Nice job.

I teach adolescents (am a science teacher in an Australian high school) and have a lot of hope for teenagers learning how to think critically about superstitious and magical beliefs. I have a lot of reasons to believe that kids are quite capable of learning such thinking skills.

Obviously a large part of promoting such thinking amongst adolescents is to use peer support. Kids are highly influenced by their social groups, so if it is fashionable to argue skilfully, that's what teenagers will aim to do.

So congratulations on doing your bit.

Athon
 
Anthon, I was wondering, out of curiosity.
Have you had any experiences like mine?
Where you know you turned the students' heads into thinking more skeptically about a certain subject?
Because, since you work with teenagers everyday, you could make it an "extra" in your classes.
You bring along a case you know you can "debunk" and explain, and just talk about that for a while. Preferably near the ending of your classes.
Yes, teach the Laws and this and that fact about what you have to teach, but make it interesting. Put little curiosities.
I once had to do a presentation in geology, about any field or subject I liked...but it had to be geology.
turns out I didn't have the patience to do a deep search for it, I only went after little historical curiosities about diamonds and how they're formed and their application and I did this as I drew thing son the board to make my point clearer.
Always nervously.
I spoke so much that people were impressed. I usually am VERY quiet. From that day forward, peopel started putting little curiosities in their works. I noticed that people payed more attention when what I talked about was put into little packets of information.
Imagine a huge school book text divided and transformed into several little curiosity boxes of some sort.
This is what I did with my talk. And awkwardly enough I still remmember that the first diamond ring was given to Mary of Burgundy in 18 Agu. 1477 by Maximillian I.
I also rememmeber that the dodo bird got extincted in 1681. Little facts that stayed in my head. Imagine doing this for school classes. I know it probably isn't the way to go, but this could be done for the skeptical extras.
 
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I became a skeptic at the age of 16 going on 17. Before then, I had heard of the paranormal and come across it once or twice in my life but wasn't particularly interested one way or the other.

Penn and Teller's TV show was what opened my eyes to the world of skepticism and got me involved.

My peers, when I tried to talk about it, had very little interest in it. About as much as if I had tried to radicalize them against phone card fraud. It usually ended with them agreeing it was crud but not showing any anger or interest and getting off the subject.

Recently, though, I did a school presentation on Sylvia Browne which got an incredible response and generated an amazing amount of interest.
 
sinclairmcevoy said:
And you know this how?
Click to expand...
His position is most likely based on the probabilities involved. The conditions needed for a planet to produce an advanced, intelligent lifeform are quite numerous (at least judging by life here), and the chances of all those same conditions being in place for another world are very low. So it's not an unreasonable bet to say that another intelligent species may be too far away for us to ever learn about it.
 
Hourglassmemory said:
Anthon, I was wondering, out of curiosity.
Have you had any experiences like mine?
Where you know you turned the students' heads into thinking more skeptically about a certain subject?
Click to expand...

Often. There are also those misses as well, where no logic will get through, as they aren't thinking logically.

Many people who are fairly skeptical feel uncomfortable about one thing; we are all easily influenced by social thinking. This includes appeals to authority and to popularity. If you like the person telling you something, chances are you're more likely to be influenced by their beliefs. Role modelling is a huge influence. I am lucky to be a fairly approachable teacher. Having long hair, piercings and tatoos (kids love a rebel teacher) and knowing how to talk to kids goes a long way. Beyond that, simply talking to the kids as if you like them is a large help.

If I then explain how something probably has little merit to it, and do it in the construct of a class that merits risk taking in being wrong (addressing poor thinking rather than punishing wrong answers), I find I can often get kids to rethink their prior beliefs.

Because, since you work with teenagers everyday, you could make it an "extra" in your classes.
You bring along a case you know you can "debunk" and explain, and just talk about that for a while. Preferably near the ending of your classes.
Yes, teach the Laws and this and that fact about what you have to teach, but make it interesting. Put little curiosities.
Click to expand...

Many areas of science have their mistaught facts. Blood being blue before being oxygenated, the rotation of a planet causing gravity etc... it doesn't require a strictly 'woo' belief to be dismantled. And, yes, I focus on these to demonstrate regularly to kids the frailty of popular belief.

As far as ghosts, psychics and UFOs go, they are a little more difficult to remedy until kids have a strong understanding of critical thinking. But it is manageable. The problem we have is kids equating that fraction of 'some possibility' with 'some probability'. Mix that with 'every opinion is equal' (an abuse of the 'everybody has an equal right to opinion') and you can see the obstacles that need to be overcome.

I once had to do a presentation in geology, about any field or subject I liked...but it had to be geology.
turns out I didn't have the patience to do a deep search for it, I only went after little historical curiosities about diamonds and how they're formed and their application and I did this as I drew thing son the board to make my point clearer.
Always nervously.
I spoke so much that people were impressed. I usually am VERY quiet. From that day forward, peopel started putting little curiosities in their works. I noticed that people payed more attention when what I talked about was put into little packets of information.
Imagine a huge school book text divided and transformed into several little curiosity boxes of some sort.
This is what I did with my talk. And awkwardly enough I still remmember that the first diamond ring was given to Mary of Burgundy in 18 Agu. 1477 by Maximillian I.
I also rememmeber that the dodo bird got extincted in 1681. Little facts that stayed in my head. Imagine doing this for school classes. I know it probably isn't the way to go, but this could be done for the skeptical extras.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you have a natural knack for teaching. Keep that in mind. The might need your talent for that some day.

Athon
 
Hourglassmemory said:
Also, I know this was a big message, but, do you think skepticism on these matters is rising amongst teenagers? Is it because there are more tv-shows and articles that explain this besides the woo woo way?
Click to expand...
I think teenagers usually haven't chosen an ideological side yet.

Kudos to you, HGM. Your presentation will stick with your classmates long after any speech an adult could give would have faded away.
 
Corsair 115 said:
His position is most likely based on the probabilities involved. The conditions needed for a planet to produce an advanced, intelligent lifeform are quite numerous (at least judging by life here), and the chances of all those same conditions being in place for another world are very low. So it's not an unreasonable bet to say that another intelligent species may be too far away for us to ever learn about it.
Click to expand...

I usually try to ignore the philosophical aspect of Drake's and simply state that even if it is possible that extraterrestrials could visit here, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that they do.

The question of whether this crop circle in front of us is extraterrestrial in origin can be resolved without arguing about all the unconfirmed values in the Drake equation. That's more a science frontier, right now.
 
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