Munk debate on populism: Bannon vs. Frum

[portlandatheist]

https://www.munkdebates.com/The-Debates/The-Rise-of-Populism

"The Autumn 2018 Munk Debate will move the motion: Be it resolved, the future of western politics is populist, not liberal..."

Steve Bannon:

"I want to bring everything crashing down and destroy all of today's establishment."

David Frum:

"We are living through the most dangerous challenge to the free government of the U.S. that anyone alive has encountered."

How is is possible that the year is 2018 and we have to ponder whether populism is a good or bad thing? Populism is taking its toll on Venezuela, the Philippines, Europe and America. I don't think this is the start of a new political era, I think its a temporary spasm and backlash against globalization and a rapidly changing world and some respond to these changes with a idealization of a past that really wasn't all that great to begin with. Make America Great Again!

 

[LSSBB]

https://www.munkdebates.com/The-Debates/The-Rise-of-Populism

"The Autumn 2018 Munk Debate will move the motion: Be it resolved, the future of western politics is populist, not liberal..."

Steve Bannon:
David Frum:

How is is possible that the year is 2018 and we have to ponder whether populism is a good or bad thing? Populism is taking its toll on Venezuela, the Philippines, Europe and America. I don't think this is the start of a new political era, I think its a temporary spasm and backlash against globalization and a rapidly changing world and some respond to these changes with a idealization of a past that really wasn't all that great to begin with. Make America Great Again!

Define "Good thing"

 

[portlandatheist]

Define "Good thing"

Living in relative peace and harmony with your fellow human beings, being able to make a decent living, having basic rights and freedoms. that kinda thing

 

[dudalb]

Bannon reminds me of the Joker in "THe Dark Knight" he just wants to see things burn.

 

[LSSBB]

Living in relative peace and harmony with your fellow human beings, being able to make a decent living, having basic rights and freedoms. that kinda thing

Just wondering how that compares to what populists define as good.

(Note: I am by no means a populist)

 

[dudalb]

And populism comes in both left and right wing flavors.

 

[Foolmewunz]

Bannon reminds me of the Joker in "THe Dark Knight" he just wants to see things burn.

Like most such, he doesn't have the altruism of The Joker. Bannon just wants to see YOUR things burn.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

In my opinion, Bannon, like Boris Johnson, just wants to make history - any history - to validate their ego.
They would happily be on the other side of any issue, provided that they are in a "Consigliere " role and their brilliance is being acknowledged.

 

[LSSBB]

In my opinion, Bannon, like Boris Johnson, just wants to make history - any history - to validate their ego.
They would happily be on the other side of any issue, provided that they are in a "Consigliere " role and their brilliance is being acknowledged.

He takes advantage of the fact that humans pay excessive attention to extreme data points instead of doing the usually sensible thing: uncover their causes, and then if necessary to get a clear signal, exclude them from the data.

 

[BrooklynBaby]

Bannon is most famous, at least to me, for his plan to "Deconstruct the administrative state". Trump is busy doing this, and that is a good thing.

 

[portlandatheist]

Bannon is most famous, at least to me, for his plan to "Deconstruct the administrative state". Trump is busy doing this, and that is a good thing.

Bannon understands himself and describes himself as a populist. One of the universal aspects of populism is contempt for expertise and established institutional knowledge. Having talent, experience, knowledge, process, and education on a given subject makes you an "elite" and "establishment". The New Yorker cartoon that suggests that passengers fly the the airplane rather than the "out of touch" pilot makes fun of this. This is explored in great depth in Tom Nichols book "The Death of Expertise". What do you mean by "deconstruct the administrative state"? Get rid of the people who actually know what they are doing?
For Trump, having prior subject knowledge and experience is seeing as more of liability than an asset hence some of his cabinet picks. He also views himself as a more appropriate decision maker than anybody else on any topic of any kind. Smarter than the generals, the economists, the scientists, etc.

 

[LSSBB]

Bannon understands himself and describes himself as a populist. One of the universal aspects of populism is contempt for expertise and established institutional knowledge. Having talent, experience, knowledge, process, and education on a given subject makes you an "elite" and "establishment". The New Yorker cartoon that suggests that passengers fly the the airplane rather than the "out of touch" pilot makes fun of this. This is explored in great depth in Tom Nichols book "The Death of Expertise". What do you mean by "deconstruct the administrative state"? Get rid of the people who actually know what they are doing?
For Trump, having prior subject knowledge and experience is seeing as more of liability than an asset hence some of his cabinet picks. He also views himself as a more appropriate decision maker than anybody else on any topic of any kind. Smarter than the generals, the economists, the scientists, etc.

The Dunning-Kruger Party now rules America.

 

[dudalb]

Bannon is most famous, at least to me, for his plan to "Deconstruct the administrative state". Trump is busy doing this, and that is a good thing.

Yeah, getting rid of experts and relying instead on Dear Leader's "gut feelings" and "instinct" is a great idea.
It's the gloryication of ignorance as a virtue;and the results will be truly catastrophic unless it is stopped in time.

 

[dudalb]

In my opinion, Bannon, like Boris Johnson, just wants to make history - any history - to validate their ego.
They would happily be on the other side of any issue, provided that they are in a "Consigliere " role and their brilliance is being acknowledged.

Problem is that to be a successful power behind the throne you have remain behind the throne and maintain a low profile, something Bannon and Boris just cannot do.

 

[portlandatheist]

Here is a video of the debate:

And Here is Frum's take on the experience:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...frum-munk-debate-what-really-happened/574867/

I’ve spent my life as a conservative, but what I’ve sought to conserve is not the Spanish Inquisition or the powers of kings and barons. I’ve sought to conserve the free societies that began to be built in the 18th century and that have gradually developed and strengthened—with many imperfections and hypocrisies and backsliding—in the 250 years since. When I was young, the most important challenges to those free societies seemed to come from Communists and Marxists. When I was not so young, the most important of those challenges seemed to come from Islamists. Today, they seem to come from—again, speaking politely—populists. The vector of the challenge changes, but the thing to be cherished and protected remains the same.

and

The new populist politics is a scam and a lie that exploits anger and fear to gain power. It has no care for the people it supposedly champions and no respect for them. It will deliver nothing—not only because its leaders are almost invariably crooks (although they are), but because they have no plans and no plans to make plans.