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acbytesla

Penultimate Amazing
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They are not going to impeach the whore chaser for using the wrong account to bribe these women to stay quiet. On that, I agree with the Big Dog.

But I disagree with Big Dog's premise that this is all Cohen's fault. Cohen didn't screw two different women while his wife was expecting or just having give birth to his son. This particular crime will mean nothing in the scheme of things. But there is more. One hell of a lot more. We're just getting warmed up. It's going to start coming fast now that Cohen is cooperating. The double dealing with Trump's phony charity is going to be like a two by four upside the Donald's head. His foundation was nothing more than a slush fund.

The old thread was getting too long. As always, you are free to quote from that thread as you will.
Posted By: kmortis
 
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It is complicated, let me walk you through it.

1. The deal as structured complied with FEC guidance
2. the deal could have and should have been structured better to avoid even the appearance of impropriety
3. Cohen abandoned the arguments that make step one true in order to avoid more serious punishments on his tax claims.

At which step should Cohen have declared the deal to the FEC?
 
The Big Dog said:
3. Cohen abandoned the arguments that make step one true in order to avoid more serious punishments on his tax claims.

Is there documentary evidence for this?
 
Had he declared it to the FEC as a campaign expenditure, then Trump would be in trouble for personal use of campaign funds.

That is a quandary isn't it?

Maybe, the moral of the story is not to cheat on your wife and pay the women to shut up.while running for the Presidency.

Perhaps?
 
That is a quandary isn't it?

Which shows that interpreting this as a campaign contribution creates a legal catch-22. Regardless of what you think about Trump, the legal system should not function that way. It's perverse.
 
Had he declared it to the FEC as a campaign expenditure, then Trump would be in trouble for personal use of campaign funds.

Nonsense, if he used his personal funds it would be all above board. He is allowed to donate as much as he wants to his campaign, and as this was a thing of value it needs to be reported as a campaign expense.
 
Nonsense, if he used his personal funds it would be all above board. He is allowed to donate as much as he wants to his campaign, and as this was a thing of value it needs to be reported as a campaign expense.

It doesn't matter if it's a "thing of value" to the campaign. It runs afoul, and obviously so, of the personal use prohibition on campaign funds, even if it used funds he donated himself to the campaign. You cannot use campaign funds, regardless of their source, for expenses that you would have incurred anyways, and Trump has been paying off women he slept with for years, long before he ran. Therefore it qualifies as personal use under federal election law.
 
Which shows that interpreting this as a campaign contribution creates a legal catch-22. Regardless of what you think about Trump, the legal system should not function that way. It's perverse.

It's really not. What's perverse is to **** around on your wife with porn stars, run for the presidency and expect to be able bribe people to shut up.
 
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Had he declared it to the FEC as a campaign expenditure, then Trump would be in trouble for personal use of campaign funds.

Not legal trouble. So long as the expense related to the campaign, it would be a legal campaign expense. It would still be a PR nightmare, but not legally problematic.

This is different from, say, Duncan Hunter who spend something like $1500 of campaign funds on video games. Those games have no relation to the campaign, so it was not a legitimate expense. Had he spent $1500 of his personal money on video games that had no relation to the campaign, he would obviously not be in trouble.

Personal funds used on campaign and not reported = legal problems
Personal funds donated to campaign, reported as such, and then used on campaign = no legal problems.

It doesn't matter if it's a "thing of value" to the campaign. It runs afoul, and obviously so, of the personal use prohibition on campaign funds, even if it used funds he donated himself to the campaign. You cannot use campaign funds, regardless of their source, for expenses that you would have incurred anyways, and Trump has been paying off women he slept with for years, long before he ran. Therefore it qualifies as personal use under federal election law.

That argument could have been valid if he not waited eight years to pay off Stormy. The timing of some of the payoffs suggests very strongly that they were done in conjunction with the campaign. To add to that, if he told Cohen to do it (as Cohen claims) as part of the campaign, then the payoffs are even more questionable.
 
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Which shows that interpreting this as a campaign contribution creates a legal catch-22. Regardless of what you think about Trump, the legal system should not function that way. It's perverse.

There should be a legal way to improve a candidate's election chances by bribing women to keep quiet about their affairs without having to report the funding sources and expenses just like any other campaign transactions?
 
Which shows that interpreting this as a campaign contribution creates a legal catch-22. Regardless of what you think about Trump, the legal system should not function that way. It's perverse.

One could question whether spending money to buy silence in a public election is even a legitimate action we should tolerate.
 
There should be a legal way to improve a candidate's election chances by bribing women to keep quiet about their affairs without having to report the funding sources and expenses just like any other campaign transactions?

I know , right? Maybe, there should be a line item in FEC filings for porn star payoffs.
 
Liverpoolmiss on Badscience

I liked the first paragraph

liverpoolmiss said:
I’ve been busy. Trying to deduce who Individual-1 is, by reading and re-reading the Cohen charging document. Individual-1 committed a crime by ordering Cohen to commit a crime. I’ve unearthed clues that suggest Individual-1 was a candidate for federal office. I’ve narrowed it down to two suspects: Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton.

To step way back, over the past 2 years we all badly under-estimated how solidly the Republican Party would commit to the Trump cult. The primary season has shown how terrified members of congress are of the lock-her-up screamers in their districts. Republican primaries have been all about who can express the most devotion to Trump. Never-Trumps have become grovelers, with people like Rand Paul turning from being a bitter enemy and Trump twitter target, into a resolute supporter doing all he can to undermine Mueller. Lindsey Graham likewise – now Trump’s best golfing buddy. It’s pretty clear quite a few Republicans have been blackmailed into loyalty by the Trump Crime Family and their foreign associates, not just via exploitation of hacked emails but also by honeytraps and direct bribery, and not just the obvious ones like Rohrabacher and Nunes.

Because we can no longer assume any chance of return to decency by Republicans, I think it’s now a simple binary based on the mid-terms:

(1) Republicans retain the House, 28% probability (per 538 https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2018-midterm-election-forecast/house/)

This is a pretty awful outcome for America, partly because almost certainly the Democrats will have won the combined vote, for example by +5%. Democrats need to get to +7% to get a majority of seats (some analysts say they need +11%). Voter suppression and gerrymandering would have worked. Survival of the norms of democracy looks unlikely, with both President and House being held while losing the national popular vote (and it would be the 3rd time in 22 years that the Republicans won the House on a losing vote share, after 1996 and 2012).

The Republicans would be in triumphant mode, even more committed to the Trump cult, and would move ahead to fighting 2020 as the Trump Party. Primary challengers like Kasich would drop away. I don’t see why they wouldn’t let Trump fire Mueller, purge Justice and the FBI, and pursue partisan investigations of political enemies. If they’re fighting 2020 as the Trump Party they should do it properly, fully inhabiting the world of “alternative facts” that Trump has invented.

Despite his horrific popularity numbers during economic golden years, possibly Trump could nevertheless win in 2020 due to extreme voter interference, and/or direct hacking of voting systems. Hacking voting systems would probably go unpunished politically, while the investigations and legal fights would take years.

(2) Democrats win the House, 72% probability. The Senate must surely stay Republican, due to the awful map the Democrats face.

The Democrats could win big, because at certain points in each state gerrymandering collapses and reverses on itself. (Imagine a 50/50 state with ten seats, eight of which are Republican by 55/45 and two are Democrat by 70/30. Total vote count is equal between the two parties but gerrymandering creates the 8-2 win. But the popular vote in total then shifts, Democrats winning the state overall by +10%, 55/45. The eight seats are then 50/50, two are 25/75. In other words, the gerrymandered seats can all shift from Republican and potentially give a 10-0 win to Democrats.)

A majority would enable the Democratic House to investigate, subpoena and attack at will. There are multiple angles to investigate, because Trump has never been a monogamous sort of criminal. He likes to **** around with many different sorts of crimes, rather than picking one and vowing to forsake all others for as long as both shall live. There’s everything: sexual assaults and rapes, the Trump foundation frauds, obstruction, the “collusion set” of crimes, the beauty pageant and university scams, the ties to the Italian mafia, the ties to the Russian mafia, the bank frauds concerning his bankruptcies, witness tampering and abuse of offering of pardons crimes, his criminal use of illegal immigrants in his businesses, the Stormy/mistresses crimes and the other “Cohen set” of crimes, the emoluments clause violations - and above all his money laundering crimes and the related tax crimes.

It looks like Mueller is targeting obstruction (because that’s already provable and has precedent in removing a President) and the “collusion set” of crimes (because Russian interference is such a serious threat). He’s letting SDNY handle the “Cohen set”. But a Democratic House wouldn’t need to limit itself so narrowly. Manafort Trial 1, the Virginia trial, demonstrates how nicely money laundering charges fit in with tax charges – tax evasion is an inevitable side effect when you launder money and relatively easy to prove. So you can just go to trial on the tax part and leave the laundering crimes for another day. (Manafort was convicted of five tax charges, one charge of failing to declare a foreign bank account and two bank fraud charges of lying to get loans.) Manafort Trial 2, the DC trial, is going to be on the more serious money laundering crimes and obstruction of justice crimes which are harder to get a jury to understand (plus a couple of technical crimes like failing to register as an agent for foreigners and signing false Foreign Agents Registration Act forms, which should be easy to prove). I think Mueller should expand out from the safe areas of obstruction and collusion into the Manafort Trial 2 type areas of large-scale money laundering, adding in the associated tax crimes – but he seems reluctant. The House could take on this burden. And finally get us the ******* tax returns, which there's no doubt will contain enough crimes for 300 years in prison.

And of course the House is able to reappoint Mueller if Trump fires him, employing him as the House’s special prosecutor.

In this scenario, the sheer weight of Trump crimes would build up over 2019. There’s certainly a risk the Democratic majority in the House would try to impeach too early. But at some point a few Republican House representatives would buckle and join them. The impeachment document could be incredibly lengthy, making Manafort’s list of 25 charges seem embarrassingly small time. And, of course, other members of the extended Trump Crime Family could be indicted directly.

I don’t know if the Republican Senate would then convict on these impeachment charges. But by this time we’d be heading into 2020. Others would join Kasich and McMullin to run against Trump in primaries. The 2020 Senate map is as good for the Democrats as 2018 is bad, and the Republican Party will be looking at losing both House and Senate with a President who the world knows is a criminal, even if the Trump cultist believe he’s Jesus. I can’t see how Trump can win in 2020 in these circumstances, even with electoral fraud. Surely the Republicans would collapse under the weight of Trump’s criminality and impeach or 25th him – trying desperately to restore at least some hope and running to reelect President Pence.

So, end of the day, I think there’s 28% chance of Trump surviving until 2020, immune to reality, and free to attempt to rig the 2020 election with help from his great ally across the sea. And a 72% chance we’ll see a sudden s-curve collapse of Trump’s control over his Republican lap-dogs, hopefully leading to a resolution where he’s removed, hauled into various trials and dies in prison.
 
Not legal trouble. So long as the expense related to the campaign, it would be a legal campaign expense. It would still be a PR nightmare, but not legally problematic.

This is different from, say, Duncan Hunter who spend something like $1500 of campaign funds on video games. Those games have no relation to the campaign, so it was not a legitimate expense. Had he spent $1500 of his personal money on video games that had no relation to the campaign, he would obviously not be in trouble.

No. That isn't how the personal use prohibition works. It isn't enough to say that the expense is useful for the campaign. You have to be able to say that you wouldn't have incurred the expense but for the campaign. An expense you would have incurred anyways, even if it's useful to the campaign, cannot be paid for by the campaign.

That argument could have been valid if he not waited eight years to pay off Stormy.

He waited until she started making noise.
 
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