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Mormonism and Scientology, Peas in a Pod?

halleyscomet

Penultimate Amazing
halleyscomet
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Messages
10,259
L. Ron Hubbard may have been too much of an egotist to ADMIT to appropriating ideas from anyone else, but he was hardly original. I've found it's not uncommon for people to think one has gotten Scientology and Mormonism confused when one explains the cosmology of the two cults. Scientology is a patchwork of appropriation, a good hunk of it lifted from "Scientologie," published in 1934 by Dr. Anastasius Nordenholz.

There are other examinations of the parallels between Hubbard's creation and faiths that were already extant.
Possible origins for Dianetics and Scientology

Scientology's Relationship With Eastern Religious Traditions

Possible origins for Dianetics and Scientology
Jon Atack

The parallels between Scientology and Mormonism are striking, to the point where it is highly unlikely they are accidental, but I'm not aware of a "Scientologie" level slab of evidence about it. I find it interesting however that it's claimed that Scientology attracts ex-Mormons. Theatans / pre-existance, Xenu / Kolob and other concepts map over quite effectively, with Scientology offering an explanation for the variances between the two. (Souls being brainwashed with false memories after being blown up with nukes in volcanoes.)

This Reddit thread offers some more examples of parallels between the two cults: A comparison of Scientology and Mormonism
 
They're both "science fiction" cults indeed. Joseph Smith's fantasies about lost tribes of Israelites founding civilisations in America was a form of speculative fiction in the early nineteenth century, comparable with later SF.
 
I haven't posted a reference to Eric Hoffer's The_True_BelieverWP in sometime. I think the last time I did the Wikipedia reference did not exist. ;)

One of the seminal points he makes is that some people are predisposed to need to believe and that it is only by chance that they end up with the True Belief they will hold and die for. Or at least until they are given a good shake and then move on to a completely contradictory True Belief in something else. As evidence for the latter he quotes Goebbels to the effect that you can turn a Communist into a Nazi in a couple of weeks.

:w2:
 
halleyscomet said:
This Reddit thread offers some more examples of parallels between the two cults: A comparison of Scientology and Mormonism
Click to expand...

That list doesn't really have much in the way of showing a direct connection between Scientology and Mormonism, though. The parallels between their respective theologies, where they're mentioned, are extremely vague, such as "The origin and destiny of souls is detailed and preposterous" and "Both churches implicitly combat introversion".

The rest of the list is calling attention to similarities that have nothing to do with the possibility that Hubbard copied or drew inspiration from Smith - it's all things like "Both founders left a trail of legal and social disarray everywhere they went", "Both founders were terrible with money", and "The death of the founder was seized as an opportunity, and thus glorified".

Neither of the rather exhaustive and extensively-footnoted Jon Atack articles that you link to which describe the origins and sources of Hubbard's ideas and writings about Scientology mention Mormonism or Smith, either.
 
halleyscomet said:
Scientology is a patchwork of appropriation, a good hunk of it lifted from "Scientologie," published in 1934 by Dr. Anastasius Nordenholz.
Click to expand...

That obscure book was only ever published in German. Hubbard knew no languages other than American English (as his college grades in German, during his one-and-a-half term at college before dropping out clearly show). So how could he have borrowed stuff from it? It's true that there was a copy in the Library of Congress which he could, theoretically, have seen. I actually once tried to read it in an online version. Because unlike Hubbard, I know German. It not only borders on the meaningless, but its ideas, as far as they can be discerned, also don't show any resemblance to Hubbard's belief system. Or to Mormonism. The term "scientology" itself is a painfully obvious, unoriginal coinage, and something Hubbard had to come up with quickly when he lost the trademark rights and copyrights to "Dianetics" to his former business partner when the original business went bankrupt (he later managed to buy them back).

The reason this obscure, bizarre, self-published philosophical treatise got mythical status among the so-called "Freezone" (i.e., devout Scientologists who no longer want to have anything to do with the official Church of Scientology), was that some of them in Austria by chance found out about its existence decades later, bought the copyright from the late author's estate, and successfully used that in court to defend their continuing use of the term "Scientologie" in a case for supposed trademark infringement brought by the CoS. Which was a bit of brilliant legal maneuvering, but doesn't show Hubbard ever saw the thing.

The parallels between Scientology and Mormonism are striking, to the point where it is highly unlikely they are accidental
Click to expand...

How about the "all cults are pretty similar in the first place" hypothesis? And the additional hypothesis: "cults set up in fairly recent history by American con artists are more likely to be alike than other, non-American cults"?

I have never read anything showing that L. Ron Hubbard had any serious knowledge of anything religious or philosophical beyond, let's call it, a Reader's Digest level of knowledge (with my apologies to Reader's Digest and its readers, of which I used to be one as a child). None of the stuff he turned into first Dianetics and then Scientology wasn't already floating around in American pop culture of the time.
 
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If Scientology disproportionately attracts ex-Mormons, I would bet it's most likely to be because Scientology goes out of its way to recruit the disaffected and friendless. I don't think there's one darn thing similar about them except that it's easier to be a member of one group when surrounded on all sides by members of that same group.
 
Hubbard's biggest source is probably Aleister Crowley. He also seems to have lifted from research in a military (veterans?) hospital where he convalesced for a while after the war.
 
hgc said:
Hubbard's biggest source is probably Aleister Crowley. He also seems to have lifted from research in a military (veterans?) hospital where he convalesced for a while after the war.
Click to expand...

Having been an Scientology-watcher for many years (I gave up the hobby some years ago), I was never aware that any of the crap Hubbard wrote was based on any "research". His, or other people's.

When he was discharged from the US Naval Reserve at the end of WW2 (during which time he had an abysmal service record, one which would probably have gotten him discharged or even court-martialed if there hadn't been a war on), he first tried to get an additional pension for faked physical injuries. He was examined at a military hospital, and, basically, found to be a malingerer. Later on, having failed to fake physical injury, he tried to fake mental injury (probably what we now would call PTSD) to up his military pension. No research of any kind was ever involved. Unless you consider routine medical examinations as "research".

His connections to Aleister Crowley are tenuous at best, and are based on Hubbard's well-documented connection to the nutcase rocket engineer Jack Parsons, who in turn was acquainted with Crowley. Hubbard never met the man, or exchanged so much as a single letter with him. Here's a quote from a letter from Crowley to someone else showing how close they were, and in what high esteem he held them:

Apparently Parsons or Hubbard or somebody is producing a Moonchild. I get fairly frantic when I contemplate the idiocy of these goats.
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Honestly, I've never seen anything showing that Lafayette R. Hubbard ever read a whole book in his entire life. He was a "snippets from newspapers and magazines" kind of guy. And Crowley only became a celebrity of sorts thanks to the British tabloid press, his own shameless self-promotion, helped by his inherited wealth, and the Beatles. Otherwise, he'd just be one more completely obscure practitioner of the "occult" (whatever that is supposed to mean).
 
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FromBelgiumWithLove said:
Having been an Scientology-watcher for many years (I gave up the hobby some years ago), I was never aware that any of the crap Hubbard wrote was based on any "research". His, or other people's.

When he was discharged from the US Naval Reserve at the end of WW2 (during which time he had an abysmal service record, one which would probably have gotten him discharged or even court-martialed if there hadn't been a war on), he first tried to get an additional pension for faked physical injuries. He was examined at a military hospital, and, basically, found to be a malingerer. Later on, having failed to fake physical injury, he tried to fake mental injury (probably what we now would call PTSD) to up his military pension. No research of any kind was ever involved. Unless you consider routine medical examinations as "research".

His connections to Aleister Crowley are tenuous at best, and are based on Hubbard's well-documented connection to the nutcase rocket engineer Jack Parsons, who in turn was acquainted with Crowley. Hubbard never met the man, or exchanged so much as a single letter with him. Here's a quote from a letter from Crowley to someone else showing how close they were, and in what high esteem he held them:

Honestly, I've never seen anything showing that Lafayette R. Hubbard ever read a whole book in his entire life. He was a "snippets from newspapers and magazines" kind of guy. And Crowley only became a celebrity of sorts thanks to the British tabloid press, his own shameless self-promotion, helped by his inherited wealth, and the Beatles. Otherwise, he'd just be one more completely obscure practitioner of the "occult" (whatever that is supposed to mean).
Click to expand...
Hey now! He deterred the Mexican invasion and dealt with the serious threat posed by a magnetic anomaly...
:D
 
catsmate1 said:
Hey now! He deterred the Mexican invasion and dealt with the serious threat posed by a magnetic anomaly...
:D
Click to expand...

Had his inspired leadership been followed we would now own Mexico and there would be no drug cartels.
 
FromBelgiumWithLove said:
Having been an Scientology-watcher for many years (I gave up the hobby some years ago), I was never aware that any of the crap Hubbard wrote was based on any "research". His, or other people's.

When he was discharged from the US Naval Reserve at the end of WW2 (during which time he had an abysmal service record, one which would probably have gotten him discharged or even court-martialed if there hadn't been a war on), he first tried to get an additional pension for faked physical injuries. He was examined at a military hospital, and, basically, found to be a malingerer. Later on, having failed to fake physical injury, he tried to fake mental injury (probably what we now would call PTSD) to up his military pension. No research of any kind was ever involved. Unless you consider routine medical examinations as "research".

His connections to Aleister Crowley are tenuous at best, and are based on Hubbard's well-documented connection to the nutcase rocket engineer Jack Parsons, who in turn was acquainted with Crowley. Hubbard never met the man, or exchanged so much as a single letter with him. Here's a quote from a letter from Crowley to someone else showing how close they were, and in what high esteem he held them:

Honestly, I've never seen anything showing that Lafayette R. Hubbard ever read a whole book in his entire life. He was a "snippets from newspapers and magazines" kind of guy. And Crowley only became a celebrity of sorts thanks to the British tabloid press, his own shameless self-promotion, helped by his inherited wealth, and the Beatles. Otherwise, he'd just be one more completely obscure practitioner of the "occult" (whatever that is supposed to mean).
Click to expand...


Here's an article about research by two psychiatrists at the same hospital where Hubbard malingered that looks like it game him some ideas for Dianetics processing.
http://tonyortega.org/2014/07/09/jo...eas-that-l-ron-hubbard-turned-into-dianetics/

Those psychiatrists later moved on from their own research, as it had not been been fruitful.

I'm also under the impression that Hubbard never read a whole book, or at least never read and understood one.
 
catsmate1 said:
Hey now! He deterred the Mexican invasion and dealt with the serious threat posed by a magnetic anomaly...
:D
Click to expand...

And let's not forget the time he bravely planted discovered an alleged bomb aboard a US Naval Reserve freighter, while safely in port in Australia. That was the incident that got him sent back to the US for the duration of the war, valiantly working insignificant desk jobs, and never getting a promotion.
 
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hgc said:
Here's an article about research by two psychiatrists at the same hospital where Hubbard malingered that looks like it gave him some ideas for Dianetics processing.
http://tonyortega.org/2014/07/09/jo...eas-that-l-ron-hubbard-turned-into-dianetics/

Those psychiatrists later moved on from their own research, as it had not been been fruitful.
Click to expand...

As I think I already said recently in a different thread somewhere on this forum, Hubbard never really used anything that wasn't already widely floating around in American popular culture at the time he came up with Dianetics. Which included things like pop-Freudian psychoanalysis, abreactive therapy, and the like. It's possible he somehow read or heard something about these psychiatrists while he was malingering, but he could equally well have picked it up elsewhere.

I'm also under the impression that Hubbard never read a whole book, or at least never read and understood one.
Click to expand...

My problem with some, let's call them cult critics (no, that's not a strictly definable category), is that IMO they often give way too much attention to the professed belief system a certain cult peddles. Some of them seem more obsessed with the arcana of the belief system of the particular cult they focus on than the cult members themselves.

Cults are about power, about control, and of course about money for the leader(s)/founder(s). The ideology, or theology, or whatever you call it, is secondary. Whether or not it's an original invention, or where the founding guru derived it from, doesn't really matter. Most cult founders also aren't what one would call intellectuals, highly educated, or well-read.

To put it into the terminology of some Christian sects: I think it's works, not faith that matters.

That said, I'm glad to see that Chris Owen's excellent monograph on Lafayette R. Hubbard's farcical military career is still online, among other places at
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Cowen/warhero/contents.htm.
 
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