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More Moore Dishonesty?

BPSCG

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Mar 27, 2002
Messages
17,539
Gene Weingarten does a humor column for the Washington Post, as well as a weekly online chat. A couple of weeks ago, he defended Farenheit 911 for reasons he best explains in this link to today's chat.

But today, he repents. It seems Michael Moore has fabricated a truth out of sneaky editing, a technique he used to great effect in Bowling for Columbine.

I haven't seen the movie, don't intend to; just wondering if anyone had heard of this, and how accurate it is.
 
Moore wasnt being dishonest. He was working with bad intelligence. :p
 
Tmy said:
Moore wasnt being dishonest. He was working with bad intelligence. :p

...and he hasn't stopped searching for the evidence that will prove he is right. We can't eliminate that one day he will find this evidence. It won't be easy to find, and no-one ever said it would be.

Besides, his goal is to remove a tyrant, and we should be applauding him for that.
 
This one, not until now.

The technique of altering a timeline, and presenting it for what it appears to be, instead of what it really was, is a staple in video media, and a staple with Moore.
Heston's 'Day After Columbine' speech, or the timeline shuffle in 9/11 regarding 'allowed to leave the country when no one else could even fly' come to mind...

So as long as one accepts the notion that such techniques (or the others involving faked newpaper headlines and 'send your kids to Iraq') are in fact *truths*, then of course, Moore is 100% accurate.
 
ok, that was sneaky. this whole time I thought it was an interesting coincidence that her son died AFTER the first interview.

still, many points were accurate. too bad ploys like the above cheapen them.

it is an important film though. wish more people would see it and make their own decision (buy a ticket for the Bourne Supremacy and sneak in if you dont want to give Moore your money)
 
HarryKeogh said:
still, many points were accurate. too bad ploys like the above cheapen them.
Were they? Which ones? That's the problem - you can't tell. I mean, this thing comes out today, two months after the movie was released.

Weingarten says later in today's chat, "Here's the real problem, in my view: by deliberately creating a deception, he is really showing contempt for the viewers. You will believe whatever I tell you, he is saying. Here, watch this. You never noticed I slipped this one by you.

"That's great if you are making "The Sixth Sense." It is not great here."
 
it is an important film though. wish more people would see it and make their own decision

Of course people can see it and "make up their own mind". But is more people seeing the movie the best way to reach a reasonable conclusion about its merits?

People can, after all, also be taught both godless evilution and holy creationism in school and "make up their own mind". The problem is that "let them see it and make up their own mind" is hardly the way to find out the truth when the movie--or the curriculum--is designed intentionally as propaganda to convince you to "make up your mind" in one particular manner.

After all, while they have every right to do so, you don't expect people to see Triumph of the Will and then "make up their own mind" about Nazi Germany, or Birth of a Nation and "make up their own mind" about the Ku Klux Klan, for this reason.
 
Skeptic said:
After all, while they have every right to do so, you don't expect people to see Triumph of the Will and then "make up their own mind" about Nazi Germany, or Birth of a Nation and "make up their own mind" about the Ku Klux Klan, for this reason.


if we are going to take it to such extremes can we not say the same thing about someone who gets all their information from Fox News Channel or all their political views from MoveOn.Org

When I say I wish more people would see Moore's film I hope they would weigh it against other sources of information and then develop an opinion and not take everything in Moore's film blindly as fact (though people do do this as people do with Fox or the NY Times, et al, all sources that have obvious biases)
 
HarryKeogh said:
if we are going to take it to such extremes can we not say the same thing about someone who gets all their information from Fox News Channel or all their political views from MoveOn.Org

When I say I wish more people would see Moore's film I hope they would weigh it against other sources of information and then develop an opinion and not take everything in Moore's film blindly as fact (though people do do this as people do with Fox or the NY Times, et al, all sources that have obvious biases)

Holding Moore up to journalists insults both. The journalist already must compete with the business of "media" and must pocket the integrity to get the scoop out.

Moore doesn't want to live in the journalist's world because he is more interested in getting his opinion out than the facts.
 
Skeptic said:
it is an important film though. wish more people would see it and make their own decision

Of course people can see it and "make up their own mind". But is more people seeing the movie the best way to reach a reasonable conclusion about its merits?

People can, after all, also be taught both godless evilution and holy creationism in school and "make up their own mind". The problem is that "let them see it and make up their own mind" is hardly the way to find out the truth when the movie--or the curriculum--is designed intentionally as propaganda to convince you to "make up your mind" in one particular manner.

After all, while they have every right to do so, you don't expect people to see Triumph of the Will and then "make up their own mind" about Nazi Germany, or Birth of a Nation and "make up their own mind" about the Ku Klux Klan, for this reason.

Do you honestly believe it's best have an opinion of something based on other people's opinions?

This isn't like quantum physics or rocket science. It's fairly easy content formatted for even the dimmest of audiences. One can go and see the presentation for one's self as a matinee for $5, or one can download a low-rez version of it for free, or one can wait another few weeks for the DVD to come out and rent it for a buck or two with a whole bunch of friends just to pan it...

Or certain people can continue to display absolutely no personal credibility or integrity when they make blind assertions about a movie they haven't seen, because they 'heard' they shouldn't see it.

Your comparisons are apt: Movies about the KKK and the Nazis and then a movie about Dubya & his administration.
 
HarryKeogh said:
When I say I wish more people would see Moore's film I hope they would weigh it against other sources of information and then develop an opinion and not take everything in Moore's film blindly as fact (though people do do this as people do with Fox or the NY Times, et al, all sources that have obvious biases)
That's not a valid comparison.

Certainly, all news reporting is slanted, and any reporter or editor who tells you otherwise is being disingenuous or simply lying.

But, as slanted as I believe the NY Times may be (though not Fox, of course...:D ), they don't actually fabricate things. They may choose to emphasize things that I think shouldn't be emphasized, and not emphasize things I think should be. They may select certain facts and ignore others. In short, they have a point of view. Fine.

But to deliberately falsify something? To claim something happened that did not happen? What Moore has done is the same kind of thing that got Jayson Blair fired, and all his work discredited.

Now if you want to hold Moore to the same standards as the Times, Fox, and Jayson Blair, then you have to be willing to say that this and his many other fabrications discredit his entire body of work.

If you don't want to hold him to the same standards, fine. But then don't tell me I should go see the movie because it's important. You still haven't answered my question from my previous post: What parts of F911 are true, and what parts are not?
 
Well after reading that bit in the Washington Post I stand corrected. I figured that Moore interviewed a bunch of pro-war people with kids in the military before then war and then interviewed them again later and only put in the movie the ones that lost their kids and then became anti-war.
 
BPSCG said:
That's not a valid comparison.

Certainly, all news reporting is slanted, and any reporter or editor who tells you otherwise is being disingenuous or simply lying.

But, as slanted as I believe the NY Times may be (though not Fox, of course...:D ), they don't actually fabricate things. They may choose to emphasize things that I think shouldn't be emphasized, and not emphasize things I think should be. They may select certain facts and ignore others. In short, they have a point of view. Fine.

But to deliberately falsify something? To claim something happened that did not happen? What Moore has done is the same kind of thing that got Jayson Blair fired, and all his work discredited.

Now if you want to hold Moore to the same standards as the Times, Fox, and Jayson Blair, then you have to be willing to say that this and his many other fabrications discredit his entire body of work.

If you don't want to hold him to the same standards, fine. But then don't tell me I should go see the movie because it's important. You still haven't answered my question from my previous post: What parts of F911 are true, and what parts are not?

but sadly, journalists do fabricate things. Take O'Reilly (of course, it's debatable if he's actually a journalist). He pulled statistics to use on his show (on the effectiveness of O'Reilly's call for a boycott of French goods) and cited the source as the Paris Business Review. Only problem is there is no such journal.

And just recently he claimed to interview Hans Blix just before the war. Never happened.

And there is no action taken. At least the NY Times will take action against its reporters who make things up or do shoddy homework. Fox will never go against their cash cow, Bill O'Reilly.

as for your last question: some of the accuracies...It took 7 mins to get off his ass, there werent any WMDs, Colin Powell and C. Rice said Hussein wasnt a threat before 9/11, and we seemingly extend favors to the saudis that we wouldnt give to other mideast countries due to the amount of wealth they have invested in our country.

and as for inaccuracies...the name of the book was The Pet Goat NOT My Pet Goat.

BPSCG, pretty please, with sugar on top...see the movie. Then when you debunk the claims made in the movie you can do it fairly instead of resorting to what is said on The Rush Limbaugh Show, an anti-Moore website or Hannity and Colmes.
 
HarryKeogh said:
but sadly, journalists do fabricate things. Take O'Reilly (of course, it's debatable if he's actually a journalist).
To the extent that a journalist is supposed to be someone who researches facts and reports those facts as news, I would say, no he isn't; he's a polemicist - someone whose primary purpose is to argue rather than report. In any case, I never watch him or any of those shows any more; all you ever hear is a bunch of shouting - you get very little actual information.

as for your last question: some of the accuracies...It took 7 mins to get off his ass,
I knew this long before Michael Moore ever made anything of it.

there werent any WMDs,
Well, thank you Mr. Moore. Gee, nobody knew that. But Bush believed there were, and Powell, and Clinton, and Blair, and Hans Blix, and oh yes, John Kerry. Even the most fervently anti-war people marching in the streets believed it. Don't you remember all the antiwar protesters warning that we mustn't go into Iraq because Saddam would use his WMDs against our soldiers? If there were no WMDs, then Saddam had everybody - and I mean everybody - fooled.

(Minor nit to pick: Don't say there weren't any WMDs. Thousands of dead Kurds and thousands of dead Iranians would throw that falsehood in your face, if they could speak. He had them - you know it and I know it. The only issue is what did he do with them. Just pray he didn't give them to any of his al Qaeda buddies that also supposedly don't exist.)

Colin Powell and C. Rice said Hussein wasnt a threat before 9/11,
I'll see your two advisors and raise you one president - Bush also said Saddam wasn't a threat, yet. He also said we dared not wait until he became one. Again, thank you, Michael Moore.

and we seemingly extend favors to the saudis that we wouldnt give to other mideast countries due to the amount of wealth they have invested in our country.
Are you talking about the Saudis who supposedly left the country when nobody else could? I thought that issue had been exposed as another of Moore's patched-together lies.

BPSCG, pretty please, with sugar on top...see the movie. Then when you debunk the claims made in the movie
See, that's just the thing - I couldn't. Moore is very skilled at what he does. This business about the grieving mother of the dead soldier is just coming to the forefront today, as far as I know, and yet the movie's been out for a couple of months; that's how sneaky this guy can be. I could probably spend weeks fruitlessly trying to dissect the thing, because I'm no movie critic or editor.* I'm sure there are plenty of people out there who have dissected it; maybe I'll search up something and report back.

*Just like you don't call on a scientist to examine a spoon-bender - you call a magician.

you can do it fairly instead of resorting to what is said on The Rush Limbaugh Show or Hannity and Colmes.
Again, I don't watch or listen to any of those shows.
 
Personally, I wish for Moore and Coulter to fall for each other.

They deserve each other.
 
Okay, here it is. Fifty-nine instances of deceit in F911, not including the rearranging of Mrs. Lipscomb's interview into a "before and after". It's very long, but if you jump to "2000 Election Night", you get into the meat of it.
 
Moore has always stated that his work is an op-ed piece. In that way, he's no different that the extremely partisan (and often deceptive) TV commercials that air during the campaign for both the political parties.
C'mon lets tie into the Democrats and Republicans for stretching the truth in their TV ads just like we trash Moore.
Oh, that's right, I forgot, we expect politicians to lie and manipulate the truth.

Yes, I realize two wrongs don't make a right, but for the record, I'm not a big fan of Moore's tactics. But, he's just playing the dirty political game that gets played by the highest players in Washington.
 

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