Million Dollar Challenge Material?
- Thread starter kruse10
- Start date
-
- Tags
- telekinesis
chran
Muse
Personally (I don't represent the JREF) I don't think you stand a chance as it's presented.
I don't think there's any way the JREF would allow a test where you could manipulate the needle like that.
Put the needle in some kind of holder and put the whole thing inside a glass jar (to prevent air currents moving the ball), and we might have something.
But again, only the JREF can tell you for sure.
I don't think there's any way the JREF would allow a test where you could manipulate the needle like that.
Put the needle in some kind of holder and put the whole thing inside a glass jar (to prevent air currents moving the ball), and we might have something.
But again, only the JREF can tell you for sure.
Jackalgirl
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2004
- Messages
- 1,801
Here's the linky, for interested persons.
chran and Denver are both correct, kruse10; your test (that is, you holding a pin with a ball on it) does not control for mundane explanations.
For example, your breath could be moving the ball. Your fingers might be consciously or subconsciously imparting a spin to the needle, which gets the ball moving.
What you have to do is think of all of the things that could be happening (breath, heat, movement) and put controls in for them.
You may not have tried this yet, so it's important to play around with it (in essence, you're trying to find out what, if any, limits there are to your ability).
For example: try sticking the pin upright in a plank of wood, then putting the ball on the other end of the pin. Put this whole setup on the floor, then set up a frame that dangles thin paper strips all around the ball (but which still lets you see the ball sufficiently enough to concentrate on it).
Can you move the ball without the strips of paper moving?
If the strips of paper move, the more likely explanation is that your breath is moving the ball, see?
By putting the pin in the plank, we remove your fingers from the equation (we're trying to rule out the possibility that your fingers are twisting the pin and imparting spin to the ball). If you have to be in direct contact, try lightly resting a fingertip against the pin. Does the nature of the ball's motion change? Does it now rock back and forth instead of spinning? The likely explanation is, then, that your fingers are imparting motion to the ball.
But let's say that you set up this rig -- say, the paper strip rig -- and you can get the ball to spin without the paper strips moving (and that you can do this without touching the pin). Next experiment: try to rotate the ball in either direction. Can you get it to go clockwise, or counter-clockwise, upon demand? Once it is moving, can you stop it and reverse its motion? Can you stop it on demand?
Once you know the answers to all of these questions, you'll be able to design a pretty tight protocol -- one that rules out all of the mundane possibilities such as heat, air motion, and conscious/unconscious movement on your part -- leaving as the only likely explanation that you actually are telekenetic.
Please let us know how your experiments go, and welcome to the Forum! : )
chran and Denver are both correct, kruse10; your test (that is, you holding a pin with a ball on it) does not control for mundane explanations.
For example, your breath could be moving the ball. Your fingers might be consciously or subconsciously imparting a spin to the needle, which gets the ball moving.
What you have to do is think of all of the things that could be happening (breath, heat, movement) and put controls in for them.
You may not have tried this yet, so it's important to play around with it (in essence, you're trying to find out what, if any, limits there are to your ability).
For example: try sticking the pin upright in a plank of wood, then putting the ball on the other end of the pin. Put this whole setup on the floor, then set up a frame that dangles thin paper strips all around the ball (but which still lets you see the ball sufficiently enough to concentrate on it).
Can you move the ball without the strips of paper moving?
If the strips of paper move, the more likely explanation is that your breath is moving the ball, see?
By putting the pin in the plank, we remove your fingers from the equation (we're trying to rule out the possibility that your fingers are twisting the pin and imparting spin to the ball). If you have to be in direct contact, try lightly resting a fingertip against the pin. Does the nature of the ball's motion change? Does it now rock back and forth instead of spinning? The likely explanation is, then, that your fingers are imparting motion to the ball.
But let's say that you set up this rig -- say, the paper strip rig -- and you can get the ball to spin without the paper strips moving (and that you can do this without touching the pin). Next experiment: try to rotate the ball in either direction. Can you get it to go clockwise, or counter-clockwise, upon demand? Once it is moving, can you stop it and reverse its motion? Can you stop it on demand?
Once you know the answers to all of these questions, you'll be able to design a pretty tight protocol -- one that rules out all of the mundane possibilities such as heat, air motion, and conscious/unconscious movement on your part -- leaving as the only likely explanation that you actually are telekenetic.
Please let us know how your experiments go, and welcome to the Forum! : )
Blackwell
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2005
- Messages
- 1,293
Hi kruse10 -- welcome to the forum.
It looks like a lot of your questions were answered when you first posted here, back in '05:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42533
It looks like a lot of your questions were answered when you first posted here, back in '05:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42533
Jackalgirl
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2004
- Messages
- 1,801
Good catch, Blackwell!
kruse10, please go through the thread that Blackwell linked and read it. In particular, you need to test yourself for the ideomotor effect (which is the term that describes unconscious movement).
Really, you've got to get your hands off that needle. That's the primary thing at this point.
kruse10, please go through the thread that Blackwell linked and read it. In particular, you need to test yourself for the ideomotor effect (which is the term that describes unconscious movement).
Really, you've got to get your hands off that needle. That's the primary thing at this point.
Dumb All Over
A Little Ugly on the Side
Kruse10, in the thread from 2005 you said-
Is the new video posted in this thread the one you spoke of in 2005?
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
A shame we can't see the bottom of the pin to see what's turning it.
Jackalgirl
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2004
- Messages
- 1,801
I doubt it. They'd have the same objections that we've put forth here. Doesn't matter whether you're demonstrating in person or on video; until you design a demonstration that excludes the possibility of heat, breath, or the voluntary/involuntary motion of your body, I suspect they won't really be interested in the least.
IMST
If Charlie Parker Was a Gunslinger, There'd Be a W
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2007
- Messages
- 6,326
Probably not. Looks like kind of a cool up close conjuring trick, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are plenty of conjurers who can do the same thing through non paranormal means.
Kruse, think about what you're saying:
I can make something move using only my mind, but I have to touch it.
In all seriousness, can you see how a reasonable person would find that statement contradictory? Have you even considered the following?
I can touch something and without consciously sensing any movement on my part, that something will move when I just think about it.
Many people, including most skeptics, understand the above to be a well known phenomenon.
I can make something move using only my mind, but I have to touch it.
In all seriousness, can you see how a reasonable person would find that statement contradictory? Have you even considered the following?
I can touch something and without consciously sensing any movement on my part, that something will move when I just think about it.
Many people, including most skeptics, understand the above to be a well known phenomenon.
IMST
If Charlie Parker Was a Gunslinger, There'd Be a W
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2007
- Messages
- 6,326
I have NEVER attempted to learn magic tricks in the past. That said, I think I can duplicate your results if I can borrow a video camera. Any Seattle area folks want to give me a hand?
Bob Klase
Master Poster
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2002
- Messages
- 2,937
Why would they be convinced? Even the JREF representatives can be fooled by many magic tricks. I'm even Randi can still be fooled by a magic trick now and then. Why would they accept yours as anything else without having controls to prevent you from cheating (either intentionally or without knowing it)?
That would be a pointless waste of time. Once someone duplicates it using trickery you'll just say "but I'm not doing it that way". Then someone else will do it with a different method and you'll repeat "but I'm not doing it that way".
So, while I won't waste time putting up a video, I did just duplicate it. I used a long needle which extended under my thumb and down below my hand (but where the camera wouldn't see it on a video if I used the same camera angle and distance used in your video). Just used my other hand to turn the bottom of the needle. That's just one of 3 methods that occurred to me while reading this thread that would look exactly like your video.
Now you can say "but I didn't use a long needle", or "but I'm not doing it that way".
Do the trick with some of the controls mentioned earlier in the thread. I'll be waiting.
Last edited:
And what do I get in return?
OK then, I tried to replicate this effect. The method I was most interesting in was turning the pin. I wanted to find out how visible a movement of my finger and thumb would be as I rolled the needle between then.
I couldn't find a needle and ball but made do with a straightened paper clip and a piece of polystyrene packaging. Obviously a a paper clip is significantly wider than a pin so it would require more movement.
The first thing that I noticed was that I'd placed my polystyrene somewhat off centre. By holding the paperclip off vertical and relaxing my grip it moved of it's own accord. That's just gravity, nothing paranormal about that.
I'm not saying that's what you're doing but that's the sort of thing you'd have to rule out in a protocol to convince a skeptic.
The second thing I noticed was that since the paperclip wasn't entirely straight I could manoeuvre the lower end with the fingers that would be out if sight if I replicated your video.
Obviously demonstrations for the paranormal challenge tend to be in person. So it would be harder to conceal such a movement but still possible.
Finally I tested what I intended to test. How visible would the movement of my fingertips be if I slowly rolled the paperclip between then in order to replicate the motion of the ball shown in your video.
I have to say the even with the disadvantage of my paperclip being thicker than you needle I could turn the polystyrene just as well as you turned your ball with barely any discernable movement of my fingertips. I even foufn that I could compensate for the very slight movement by rotating my hand. By doing so I could get an entire revolution whilst keeping the movement of my fingertips pretty much imperceptible.
Incidentally in doing so I raised the curiosity of a colleague at the next desk. As such I showed him your video and explained that it was your claim that you were moving the ball with the power of your mind. His comment: "I'd be more inclined to believe him if he wasn't touching it"
If that's what you'd have to do to convince the average disinterested party you'll have to do a lot more to convince the JREF.
My advice to you is to see if you can do this without touching it and then introduce various other controls such as sheild the ball from draughts.
If you find you can still control the movement, start it stop it make it change direction the look at some of the psi wheel protocols that have previously been suggested.
You will of course have to get a suitably qualified academic to declare that they have no scientific explanation for how you're accomplishing it and build up a media pressence performing this feat but should you actually master the ability to move things with your mind these secondary hurdles should be quite easy.
I wish you the best of luck with your investigations. Please do report back, even if you find out that it was probably the ideomotor effect after all.
I couldn't find a needle and ball but made do with a straightened paper clip and a piece of polystyrene packaging. Obviously a a paper clip is significantly wider than a pin so it would require more movement.
The first thing that I noticed was that I'd placed my polystyrene somewhat off centre. By holding the paperclip off vertical and relaxing my grip it moved of it's own accord. That's just gravity, nothing paranormal about that.
I'm not saying that's what you're doing but that's the sort of thing you'd have to rule out in a protocol to convince a skeptic.
The second thing I noticed was that since the paperclip wasn't entirely straight I could manoeuvre the lower end with the fingers that would be out if sight if I replicated your video.
Obviously demonstrations for the paranormal challenge tend to be in person. So it would be harder to conceal such a movement but still possible.
Finally I tested what I intended to test. How visible would the movement of my fingertips be if I slowly rolled the paperclip between then in order to replicate the motion of the ball shown in your video.
I have to say the even with the disadvantage of my paperclip being thicker than you needle I could turn the polystyrene just as well as you turned your ball with barely any discernable movement of my fingertips. I even foufn that I could compensate for the very slight movement by rotating my hand. By doing so I could get an entire revolution whilst keeping the movement of my fingertips pretty much imperceptible.
Incidentally in doing so I raised the curiosity of a colleague at the next desk. As such I showed him your video and explained that it was your claim that you were moving the ball with the power of your mind. His comment: "I'd be more inclined to believe him if he wasn't touching it"
If that's what you'd have to do to convince the average disinterested party you'll have to do a lot more to convince the JREF.
My advice to you is to see if you can do this without touching it and then introduce various other controls such as sheild the ball from draughts.
If you find you can still control the movement, start it stop it make it change direction the look at some of the psi wheel protocols that have previously been suggested.
You will of course have to get a suitably qualified academic to declare that they have no scientific explanation for how you're accomplishing it and build up a media pressence performing this feat but should you actually master the ability to move things with your mind these secondary hurdles should be quite easy.
I wish you the best of luck with your investigations. Please do report back, even if you find out that it was probably the ideomotor effect after all.
Looking at the video and a little work with Corel Paint makes me doubt the veracity of this claim.
Take a look at the images captured from the video below. A faint spot is arrowed at the beginning of the video.
You will notice, from the second picture captured very near the end, that the thumb covers the spot. This would suggest thumb movement or, at the very least, camera rotation. There also seems to be significant lateral movement of the thumb with respect to the forefinger. You can see that marked where the thumbnail intersects the forefinger on both images. It's only a few millimetres difference but enough to warrant suspicion.
With these points in mind watch the video again. The manipulation is hardly perceptible but, with a little effort, visible.
Will this win the MDC? Is the Pope a protestant?
Say no more
BV