Milk CAUSES osteoporosis??

[Aquila]

Please could we have some good sound scientific arguments either supporting or refuting the claim that milk actually contributes to bone weakening, in both men and women.

The theory is that since milk contains a high amount of protein, the stomach has to produce a large amount of HCl to digest it. This makes the body fluids acidic, and in an effort to maintain balance, the body tries to neutralize the ph by taking minerals from various parts of the system. It takes sodium first, and then calcium - from the bones.

Here are two websites which describe this:

http://www.yourhealthbase.com/database/a80h.htm

http://www.milksucks.com/osteo.asp

I remember when my daughter was doing a science fair project in 6th grade, she took chicken bones and put them in a glass of vinegar, with a glass of water and empty glass as a control. The vinegar bones turned rubbery.

I have absolutely no political interest in this issue, but personally do not drink milk. What are the facts?

 

[tyr_13]

Well the part that sounds like BS to me would be the high HCI making body fluids acidic and our bodies responding by taking calcium. If this were the case, any high protein food would cause weak bones. Most fish would suck your bones thin. Even if our bodies did work like this, wouldn't the calcium in the milk help minimize this compared to high protein foods that don't contain calcium?

Mr. Larsen has some rather, different, opinions on how our bodies operate, how the world works, and how everything we think is good is bad for us. He advocates fish oil supplements, etc. He is not a doctor.

I think I'll try to dig up the study showing that people are tallest with the least bone breaks in areas were milk is the cheapest.

[edit] Wait, does he mean high levels of vitamin A? That is in milk and can weaken bones. Because of that some doctors do believe that milk and dairy products aren't the best source of calcium. Of course they ignore how plentiful and cheap milk is when compared to other calcium sources...or the taste...now I want some milk.

 

[Doubt]

Well, I am no doctor, but his bit about sodium being taken from the body does not look good on it's face. If you loose sodium first I would think two things would happen. First, those folks with osteoporosis should be testing lower in sodium levels.

Also, with sodium being an electrolyte, those folks should be having more cramps.

 

[AgeGap]

ROME, ITALY. Italian researchers have just released a study linking excess protein consumption to the creation of an acid environment in the body and possible subsequent disease and bodily deterioration.

What is "excess protein consumption"? Would that be like Atkins?

Other studies have shown that omnivorous women lost 35 per cent of their bone mass over a 15-year period following menopause as compared to lacto-ovo vegetarians who only lost 18 per cent.

A lacto-ovo vegetarian would be getting protein from milk.

 

[Pidge]

Go find a graph plotting per-capita milk consumption vs osteoporosis rates around the world to see if there is any corrleation.

Randomly googling for food for thought and to stir the pot:

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/143/5/472

but then again http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/84/8/1319

and also http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/55/6/1168


[size=-3]And my metaphors are in bad taste.[/size]

 

[geni]

I seem to recall that this is a PETA compain issue.

 

[El Greco]

Metabolic acidosis may be a concern with high protein intakes, but we are talking about HIGH protein intakes, more than 3-4 gr/kg of bodyweight/day, for extended amounts of time. Milk doesn't have a protein concentration so high that it alone would make such protein intakes probable, or even possible for the vast majority of people.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Here's a paper I found looking at childhood and adolescent milk intake and osteoporosis, bone density and fractures.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/77/1/257

 

[linusrichard]

I'm sure we can rely on milksucks.com to provide a fair and unbiased analysis of the subject.

 

[paximperium]

The levels of dishonesty is disgusting.
Here is the actual journal article:
http://www.orthomolecular.org/library/jom/1998/pdf/1998-v13n02-p089.pdf
It specifically looks at a high protein diet(>30g/day) and has nothing to do with milk intake. I'm not going to go into the paper because it is simply terrible. To get the protein-urea cycle wrong and other basic science wrong so blantantly is laughable.

The Milksucks article is also garbage.

This Web page focuses on debunking a myth sold to the American public by a multibillion-dollar industry—an industry that has repeated its marketing message so often and for so long that most people now believe that dairy products are essential to bone health, despite extensive evidence to the contrary. The dairy industry has an army of dietitians, public relations consultants, and lobbyists on its payroll but does not have the evidence on its side.

Starts off with an Ad hom Conspiracy theory and paranoid aren't they?

The dairy pushers pay dietitians, doctors, and researchers to endorse dairy products, spending more than $300 million annually, just at the national level, to retain a market for their products.

Its called advertising.

The dairy industry provides free teaching materials to schools and pays sports stars, celebrities, and politicians to push an agenda based on profit, not public health.

So? They are an industry aren't they? Of course they attempt to clump those who support milk as "in on it".

Dr. Walter Willett, veteran nutrition researcher at the Harvard School of Public Health, says that calcium consumption via dairy-product intake "has become like a religious crusade," overshadowing true preventive measures such as physical exercise.

Unknown context. It sounds like a misquote.

To hear the dairy industry tell it, if you consume three glasses of milk daily, your bones will be stronger and you will be able to rest assured that osteoporosis is not in your future. Not so.

Leave the poor Straw man alone.

After examining all the available nutritional studies and evidence, Dr. John McDougall concludes: "The primary cause of osteoporosis is the high-protein diet most Americans consume today.

And how does this relate to Milk consumption? Milk isn't exactly super protein rich...I blame it on soy. Sounds like another misquote.

As one leading researcher in this area said, 'eating a high-protein diet is like pouring acid rain on your bones.'"

Really? Who is this "leading researcher"?

Remarkably enough, both clinical and population studies show that milk-drinkers tend to have more bone breaks than people who consume milk infrequently or not at all. For the dairy industry to lull unsuspecting women and children into complacency by telling them to be sure to drink more milk so that their bones will be strong may make good business sense, but it does the consumer a grave disservice.

That's nice. A citation would be nice.

Much of the world's population does not consume cow's milk, and yet most of the world does not experience the high rates of osteoporosis found in the West. In some Asian countries, for example, where consumption of dairy foods is low, fracture rates are far lower than they are in the United States and in Scandinavian countries, where consumption of dairy products is high.

Yeah...must be the reason that japanese and chinese women have such high rates of osteoporosis.

While reading this, please remember that dairy products contain no complex carbohydrates or fiber but are packed with saturated fats and cholesterol and have been linked to heart disease, cancer, Crohn's disease, and a host of childhood illnesses from asthma to diabetes.

What a big irrelevant clump of mish-mash pseudo-facts.

But Don't Take Our Word for It—Examine the Science for Yourself

Yes why don't we...oh wait we can't because there are zero citations and useless quotes.

Don't believe that garbage. Believe in the science.
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/bonehealth/index.html
http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/bonehealth/chapter_7.html#OtherNutrientsImportanttoBone
http://consensus.nih.gov/2000/2000Osteoporosis111html.htm
http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/Publicatio...=500&rdepth=0&sufs=2&order=r&cq=&id=4592b6f90
But then all these organizations are apparently in on the conspiracy...oh well...

 

[Scazon]

If the stomach has to produce MORE HCl, doesn't that mean the body has to pump H+ ions OUT of the Precious Bodily Fluids, into the stomach (topologically external)... making the body more alkaline??? In the duodenum, gastric acid is neutralized by sodium bicarbonate..... making the whole thing sort of completely neutral, except immediately local to the secreting cells, which become alkaline.

In other words, just what you'd expect from moneygrubbing food faddists.

 

[Pidge]

Metabolic acidosis may be a concern with high protein intakes, but we are talking about HIGH protein intakes, more than 3-4 gr/kg of bodyweight/day, for extended amounts of time. Milk doesn't have a protein concentration so high that it alone would make such protein intakes probable, or even possible for the vast majority of people.

You may have heard of this stuff called "cheese".

Cheddar is about 25% protein, mozzarella about 21%.

So how many pizzas is that

I think the trick to avoid bone density loss is to make sure you are eating as much calcium as you, um, excrete due to buffering against acidification, preferrably a bit more.

More food for thought:
http://www.molliekatzen.com/harvard.php?harvard=3

http://naturaldrugstore.com/html_pages/osteo_pg1.html (FoS: phosphorus, amongst others)

And boy oh boy the googling throws up conflicting information...

One study (referenced in the first link) found the calcium sumplementation increased bone density a bit initially, then levelled off.

Another study found a postive correlation between Ca and Prostate Cancer.

Gah. Bed time

 

[dakotajudo]

A few years back, I was a lab instructor for a human physiology course, also took a grad course in exercise physiology. I seem to remember discussing milk as a recovery drink (chocolate milk is among the best); I'm feeling kinda lazy about looking up my references, but as I remember it:

The theory is that since milk contains a high amount of protein, the stomach has to produce a large amount of HCl to digest it. This makes the body fluids acidic, and in an effort to maintain balance, the body tries to neutralize the ph by taking minerals from various parts of the system. It takes sodium first, and then calcium - from the bones.

Acid isn't strictly needed to digest protein. HCl does activate pepsin the the stomach and denatures proteins, but doesn't hydrolyze directly. There are also pancreatic enzymes in the small intestine - e.g. trypsin - that digest proteins.

The amino acid composition of proteins, after digestion, can change the body's pH; some amino acids have acid side chains, others are alkali. Hydrolysis of protein is itself pretty much neutral; there's an organic acid and an organic base on either side of the bond. But that would depend on the exact amino acid composition.

There is the concept of renal acid load associated with food. IIRC, the renal acid load of milk is close to neutral, cheese more acidic, most vegetables are alkali. Bread, however, also has a positive renal acid load.

Ultimately, it's the kidneys that excrete the excess acid or alkali. That process uses sodium as part of a bicarbonate buffer - sorry, but I'd have to dig up a textbook for the details - but the most important is the phosphate buffer. Phosphate may be taken from bone, and calcium is released as well; but how much net turnover there is will depend on diet as well. There's some flux in and out of bone regardless; bone acts as something of mineral reservoir, not just a static structure. Bone is living tissue.

I remember when my daughter was doing a science fair project in 6th grade, she took chicken bones and put them in a glass of vinegar, with a glass of water and empty glass as a control. The vinegar bones turned rubbery.

The pH of vinegar is, what, 4-5? Normal blood pH is around 7.4-6; acidosis around 7.2?

 

[El Greco]

You may have heard of this stuff called "cheese".

Cheddar is about 25% protein, mozzarella about 21%.

So how many pizzas is that

>3-4 gr/kg of bodyweight/day is >225-300gr of protein for a 75kg individual. How many pizzas is that ?

 

[Aquila]

Thanks for your replies everyone.

I know that Milk Sucks is quite political so take their info with a grain of salt, but I do conclude that too much protein could be damaging.

Osteoporosis meds seem to be a controversial to me. I heard of women who took them and had fractures in their femurs before falling. I've heard they actually make the bones too brittle. Personally, I just don't know why people cant leave well alone, eat natural food and excercise.

In the very exposed Sally Field's advert for Boniva, she says that she "did all the right things" when she was younger but still got osteoporosis. I wonder what she did. I've also heard that women in India and China don't get so much osteoporosis. This implies that a plant based diet might be better.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

There are all sorts of factors in osteoporosis as well as diet - including genetic ones. According to wikipedia people of european and asian ancestry are of higher risk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteoporosis#Risk_factors

 

[Chris Haynes]

...In the very exposed Sally Field's advert for Boniva, she says that she "did all the right things" when she was younger but still got osteoporosis. I wonder what she did. I've also heard that women in India and China don't get so much osteoporosis. This implies that a plant based diet might be better.

There is a genetic component. From http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/osteoporosis.html ....

Getting older
Being small and thin
Having a family history of osteoporosis Taking certain medicines
Being a white or Asian woman
Having osteopenia, which is low bone mass

I am now questioning the statement that osteoporosis is not seen in India or China (it may be due to access to medical care).

Plus India is a major dairy producer and user, http://www.indiadairy.com/ind_world_number_one_milk_producer.html. Ghee is a type of butter, many sauces are yogurt based, and then there is chai (tea in milk). Looking around I happened upon a pretty cool site for food:
http://www.food-india.com/

Also, another form of calcium is from bones. In China soup is consumed, and much of that soup is created by making a stock of bones from chickens, fish and beef. The stock also forms a basis for many sauces. The simmering of bones releases calcium:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_259-260/ai_n10299306/pg_7

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

Osteoporosis meds seem to be a controversial to me. I heard of women who took them and had fractures in their femurs before falling. I've heard they actually make the bones too brittle. Personally, I just don't know why people cant leave well alone, eat natural food and excercise.

<snip>

My mother has been taking one for osteopenia, which at her last bone density scan had been reversed.

 

[Arthur Denton]

>3-4 gr/kg of bodyweight/day is >225-300gr of protein for a 75kg individual. How many pizzas is that ?

Well, a normal cheese pizza takes 200 g (not Kg) of cheese, 400g if you're a maniac (or if you eat giant pizzas) and want to have evacuation problems. Therefore, we can only presume you'd have to eat, if you're a maniac, 187,5 pizzas. One eight-slice pizza feeds me really well. I can't possibly think of someone eating four, and I won't add comments about 187,5 pizzas, or, 1500 slices of pizza

The chemistry of this particular "hoax", "untruth", "woo" puzzles me. I use milk because it has free calcium, to reach the needed calcium levels for my body to grow with strong bones. Ok. Then someone pointed out that milk is supposed to have protein that causes your blood to become more acidic. Ok. but ain't soy milk more dangerous then? AFAIK it has more protein than cow's milk. I have no data source for this whatsoever, I'm just curious.

 

[paximperium]

Osteoporosis meds seem to be a controversial to me. I heard of women who took them and had fractures in their femurs before falling. I've heard they actually make the bones too brittle. Personally, I just don't know why people cant leave well alone, eat natural food and excercise.

There isn't anything controversial about the use of boniva or the more classic fosamax. It is used because an overwhelming amount of evidence show that it works.
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001155.html

Main results

Eleven trials representing 12,068 women were included in the review.

Relative (RRR) and absolute (ARR) risk reductions for the 10 mg dose were as follows. For vertebral fractures, a significant 45% RRR was found (RR 0.55, 95% CI 0.45 to 0.67). This was significant for both primary prevention, with 45% RRR (RR 0.55, 95% CI 0.38 to 0.80) and 2% ARR, and secondary prevention with 45% RRR (RR 0.55, 95% CI 0.43 to 0.69) and 6% ARR. For non-vertebral fractures, a significant 16% RRR was found (RR 0.84, 95% CI 0.74 to 0.94). This was significant for secondary prevention, with 23% RRR (RR 0.77, 95% CI 0.64 to 0.92) and 2% ARR, but not for primary prevention (RR 0.89, 95% CI 0.76 to 1.04). There was a significant 40% RRR in hip fractures (RR 0.60, 95% CI 0.40 to 0.92), but only secondary prevention was significant with 53% RRR (RR 0.47, 95% CI 0.26 to 0.85) and 1% ARR. The only significance found for wrist was in secondary prevention, with a 50% RRR (RR 0.50 95% CI 0.34 to 0.73) and 2% ARR.

For adverse events, we found no statistically significant differences in any included study. However, observational data raise concerns regarding potential risk for upper gastrointestinal injury and, less commonly, osteonecrosis of the jaw.
Authors' conclusions

At 10 mg per day, both clinically important and statistically significant reductions in vertebral, non-vertebral, hip and wrist fractures were observed for secondary prevention ('gold' level evidence, www.cochranemsk.org). We found no statistically significant results for primary prevention, with the exception of vertebral fractures, for which the reduction was clinically important ('gold' level evidence).