Measuring Mercury Toxicity

[AZJames]

I am having some limited success in discussing the skeptical perspective of the Mercury-Autism debate in a large (100 members) support group here in Phoenix. As a father with an autistic son, the subject interests me, but I'm stuck on something.There is a planned chelation study in our area (I am absolutely not planning to participate, but have been asked for comment on occasion) at one "Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine". Details, as published by the researchers, can be found at scnm dot edu slash forms slash lettertoparents.pdf

I apologize that I am not able to post links yet. Perhaps someone who replies could include a link.

Because 'provoked testing' as described in Phase I of the study, is considered by much of the scientific community as bogus:

WHAT IS THE PREFERRED METHOD FOR DETERMINING ACTUAL MERCURY TOXICITY?

HOW WOULD THIS STUDY NEED TO BE CONDUCTED TO SURVIVE SCIENTIFIC SCRUTINY?

Any answers to this, as well as comments about the study publication will be greatly appreciated.

-James

 

[TobiasTheViking]

As i'm not entirely sure what you are asking for i'll here post something i've posted before on other fora, you can use this at the next meeting to show the dangers of Mercury(or lack of same). feel free to use it if you want



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Ah yes, good old Mercury.

K, lets get a few facts straight.

There was Mercury in Thiomersal. As far as i know Mercury may make autism worse. but Mercury does NOT cause autism.

Both in Japan and in Denmark Mercury have been removed from vacinations, and in both Japan and Denmark the number of children with Autism INCREASED.

That said, the amount of Mercury in Thiomersal is not enough to make a difference, if you live near a mine, you might get enough Mercury in your blood that the autism can get worse. Still not cause it.



Also, just a little note. There is not, now, nor have there ever been, mercury in the MMR vacine.

Ethylmercury is present in some vaccines in a compound called thiomersal. It is used in some vaccines to keep the vaccine free of contamination. It has been used in vaccines for over 60 years and has played an important role in maintaining vaccine safety. There is no thiomersal in MMR.

http://www.mmrthefacts.nhs.uk/news/newsitem.php?id=39

If you want proof, well, here you go.

AbstractAlthough mercury has been proven to be a neurotoxicant, there is a lack of data to evaluate the causal relationship between mercury and autism. We aim to see if there is increased mercury exposure in children with autistic spectrum disorder. We performed a cross-sectional cohort study over a 5-month period in 2000 to compare the hair and blood mercury levels of children with autistic spectrum disorder (n = 82; mean age 7.2 years) and a control group of normal children (n = 55; mean age 7.8 years). There was no difference in the mean mercury levels. The mean blood mercury levels of the autistic and control groups were 19.53 and 17.68 nmol/L, respectively (P = .15), and the mean hair mercury levels of the autistic and control groups were 2.26 and 2.07 ppm, respectively (P = .79). Thus, the results from our cohort study with similar environmental mercury exposure indicate that there is no causal relationship between mercury as an environmental neurotoxin and autism.

http://www.bcdecker.com/pubMedLinkOut.aspx?pub=JCNO&vol=19&iss=6&page=431

CONCLUSIONS: Studies do not demonstrate a link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and ASD, and the pharmacokinetics of ethylmercury make such an association less likely. Epidemiologic studies that support a link demonstrated significant design flaws that invalidate their conclusions. Evidence does not support a change in the standard of practice with regard to administration of thimerosal-containing vaccines in areas of the world where they are used.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/114/3/793

CONCLUSIONS: With the possible exception of tics, there was no evidence that thimerosal exposure via DTP/DT vaccines causes neurodevelopmental disorders.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...cs.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=15342825

Autism, a neurodevelopmental disorder, may involve autoimmune pathogenesis. Since mercury is potentially a risk factor for autoimmunity, we conducted a study of mercury-induced antinuclear and antilaminin antibodies in autistic and normal children who had been pre-administered with thimerosal-containing vaccines. Laboratory analysis by different immunoassays showed that the serum level of these two autoimmune markers did not significantly differ between autistic and normal children. This finding suggests that the mercury as in thimerosal-containing vaccines is likely not related to autoimmune phenomenon in autism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...odukte.asp?typ=fulltext&file=JBS2004011005607

CONCLUSIONS: No consistent significant associations were found between TCVs and neurodevelopmental outcomes. Conflicting results were found at different HMOs for certain outcomes. For resolving the conflicting findings, studies with uniform neurodevelopmental assessments of children with a range of cumulative thimerosal exposures are needed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...cs.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=14595043

CONCLUSIONS: The discontinuation of thimerosal-containing vaccines in Denmark in 1992 was followed by an increase in the incidence of autism. Our ecological data do not support a correlation between thimerosal-containing vaccines and the incidence of autism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...cs.org/cgi/pmidlookup?view=long&pmid=12949291

CONCLUSIONS: The body of existing data, including the ecologic data presented herein, is not consistent with the hypothesis that increased exposure to Thimerosal-containing vaccines is responsible for the apparent increase in the rates of autism in young children being observed worldwide.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...b.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0749379703001132

Vaccines have turned many childhood diseases into distant memories in industrialized countries. However, questions have been raised about the safety of some vaccines because of rare but serious adverse effects that have been attributed to them. Pain, swelling, and redness at the injection site are common local reactions to vaccines. Fever and irritability may occur after some immunizations. Currently, no substantial evidence links measles-mumps-rubella vaccine to autism, or hepatitis B vaccine to multiple sclerosis. Thimerosal is being eliminated from routine childhood vaccines because of concerns that multiple immunizations with vaccines containing this preservative could exceed recommended mercury exposures. Family physicians should be knowledgeable about vaccines so that they can inform their patients of the benefits of immunization and any proven risks. If immunization rates fall, the incidence of vaccine-preventable illnesses may rise.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...rl=http://www.aafp.org/link_out?pmid=12484693



Need i go on?



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i hope it is of some use

Sincerely
Tobias

 

[AZJames]

Thank you Tobias.

What I am really looking for is a consensus on what is the most accurate way to measure acutal mercury toxicity.

Ideally, the method would be one that researchers (note that I did not say scientists, yet) should employ if they wan't their work to provide any valid data.

Anybody know a toxicologist?

 

[AZJames]

I was asked, "Okay, then if the proposed research is bogus due to the method, what method should they be using?" Forget for a minute that the study may be focused on treatment aimed at a cause that probably doesn't exist.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

hm.. i'll try to look it up, though it isn't my area.. but i am slightly interested

Hope my many quotes above are worth something.

 

[back2basics]

Are you are looking for some form of scale of the neurotoxicity of Mercury?

Or are you looking for how much is safe and how much is not safe?

There are a number of factors;

1) The type of Mercury. Ethyl is less toxic than Methyl (found in fish and the environment), so it depends on the compound.
2) It depends on the person, some people can excrete better than others.
3) Autistic Children have been shown not to excrete Heavy Metals as well as control groups. More Mercury is found in the teeth, and less in the hair.
4) Girls and boys can excrete Mercury at different rates, various hormones play a factor in this. As you know there is a 4:1 by to girls ratio in Autism.

Obviously the toxicity is relative to the amount of time it spends in the body. So it's not quiet a simple as pulling a figure out of the air and saying this is dangerous, this is not.

I am personally convinced of a link between Mercury and some of the Autism spectrum disorders. However not the vaccine link, I do not believe the amounts of Mercury in a normal Childs vaccine history are anywhere near the amounts needed to cause this level of neurological damage. I believe Methyl Mercury is the main culprit, not Ethyl. I think we should be looking toward fish, and coal plants not vaccines, or a combination. With a genetic link being a problem with heavy metal excretion, causing the neurotoxins to stay in the system for an abnormal time.

Chelation only claims to aid detoxification of heavy metals. There is no method chelation can repair existing neurological damage, a very basic fact that many people seem to be missing. Even a 3 year old with exertion problems will have excreted most of the Mercury (in to the teeth) after that time, unless they have a regular intake.

We cannot fall in to the trap of lumping all type of the spectrum in together either.

 

[TobiasTheViking]

I am personally convinced of a link between Mercury and some of the Autism spectrum disorders. However not the vaccine link, I do not believe the amounts of Mercury in a normal Childs vaccine history are anywhere near the amounts needed to cause this level of neurological damage.

The only link i know off, is that mercury(in sufficient amounts) can make autism WORSE.. not cause it(and i think i got that from you).

Got anything on actually causing it, not just making it worse? i'm very interested.

 

[pgwenthold]

Are you are looking for some form of scale of the neurotoxicity of Mercury?

Or are you looking for how much is safe and how much is not safe?

No, I think the question is how to determine how much is around in the first place?

Knowing how much is safe and not safe is irrelevent if you can't measure how much is there.

I think what we are looking for is something like "use an atomic flame absorption test on a blood sample" or "do a potentiometric titration."

I don't know the best approach, but my guess is that "hair analysis" is NOT the correct way to do it.

 

[geni]

I was asked, "Okay, then if the proposed research is bogus due to the method, what method should they be using?"

This may give some clues:

http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/members/2005/7712/7712.html

Although there is the problem that since the study is in humans the person is expected to be alive at the end.

 

[back2basics]

The only link i know off, is that mercury(in sufficient amounts) can make autism WORSE.. not cause it(and i think i got that from you).

Got anything on actually causing it, not just making it worse? i'm very interested.

Well the symptoms of Mercury poisoning are similar to some of the symptoms seen in some of the spectrum of disorders that are lumped in to what we call Autism.

We talked about this before, but Aspergers is different. Some of the "symptoms" or talents of Aspergers relate in no way to anything seen in Aspergers.

As for evidence of causation, that is the elusive holly grail. That will be the final piece to the puzzle, if you will. It's very difficult to study what high levels of Mercury do to fetal development.

We are left with circumstantial evidence, such as the 60,000 study you posted about, or the baby tooth project.

All we can say is that in a very large percentage of tested children we in nearly all cases see less Mercury in the hair of Autistic Children and far greater amounts in the teeth.

For me it's likely the damage is done during development in the womb and not after birth. Mercury poisoning in adults (but remember adults that excrete heavy metals in a normal way) is a short term thing that may leave long term side effects, but not to the extent we see in some of the spectrum disorders. Which is why I think it makes sense the damage is done during the development of the brain. Obviously this does not explain regression, but there may be some auto-immune response or seizures may be playing a part there.

The main circumstantial links to Mercury are the excretion issue and the ratio of female to male cases, and the superior detoxification of females. These could be coincidence, however when we add in the studies of higher incidence of Autism near coal power plants and Mercury mines it's the best link we have at the moment.

Also add in the recent umbilical chord studies, that show higher levels of (Methyl) Mercury in pregnant women than any vaccination regime would give and the vaccine link doesn't really make sense.

Where ever you stand on the issue, thinking in terms of a single cause is probably not a very good idea. It seems that the Autism Spectrum will be split up at some stage in to different disorders as our understanding becomes more complete.

 

[Capsid]

I looked at the protocol proposed to test the chelating agent in the letter to parents pdf. There does not appear to be a test for mercury before treatment. Or is this the issue at hand? That there is no reliable test for mercury in tissue samples? Yet the protocol tests for mercury in urine, is that just as unreliable? The protocol seems unethical to me in that the children may be exposed to an unnecessary treatment. Also no claim can be made that the chelating agent has actually worked since there is no before and after measure of mercury levels. Measuring mercury in the urine after treatment might show some excretion but in others not. In those kids where it did not work the interpretation might be that the chelating agent did not work, rather than the kids not having high mercury levels in the first place. It's not a very good basis for conducting a trial. Is there ethical review? if not why not?

 

[TobiasTheViking]

agreed, and different causes for different type is very probable.

 

[back2basics]

No, I think the question is how to determine how much is around in the first place?

Knowing how much is safe and not safe is irrelevent if you can't measure how much is there.

I think what we are looking for is something like "use an atomic flame absorption test on a blood sample" or "do a potentiometric titration."

I don't know the best approach, but my guess is that "hair analysis" is NOT the correct way to do it.

This is making the incorrect assumption that all Chelation is based on. That’s is the “big lie” of Chelation. That Autism is short term Mercury poisoning, and once the Mercury is out of the system, the Autism will be cured. This has been shown to be incorrect many times. You cannot repair neurological damage via detoxification. So knowing how much Mercury is in the blood of a diagnosed child is just not going to be very useful. That’s how the quacks that perform Cheleton "therapy" of Autistic Children as a "cure" are being struck off left right and center. There is simply no way we know of, that reverses existing neurological damage, and it would be extremely easy to test if there were.

But yeah the hair test is not going to be a very good method, as in the tests that have been completed (which are fairly extensive) have shown less Mercury in the hair and more in the teeth, so the teeth (being slow growing) show a history of Mercury exposure.

 

[AZJames]

Tobias, Geni, PGWentHold,

Your comments and insight are sincerely appreciated.

Capsid,

Thank you for posting the link to the letter.
I appreciate your comments as well.

James

 

[back2basics]

I looked at the protocol proposed to test the chelating agent in the letter to parents pdf. There does not appear to be a test for mercury before treatment. Or is this the issue at hand? That there is no reliable test for mercury in tissue samples? Yet the protocol tests for mercury in urine, is that just as unreliable? The protocol seems unethical to me in that the children may be exposed to an unnecessary treatment. Also no claim can be made that the chelating agent has actually worked since there is no before and after measure of mercury levels. Measuring mercury in the urine after treatment might show some excretion but in others not. In those kids where it did not work the interpretation might be that the chelating agent did not work, rather than the kids not having high mercury levels in the first place. It's not a very good basis for conducting a trial. Is there ethical review? if not why not?

Well look at who the letter is from Southwest college of Naturopathic Medicine.

More "quick fixes" from quacks, for parents who want to be able to give their children a pill for a cure.

 

[back2basics]

http://www.dmpsbackfire.com/action/default.shtml

"Physicians are licensed to practice medicine in a state by the state medical board. These medical boards have the authority to discipline physicians who abuse their authority, who are incompetent, or who are a danger to patients. DMPS is an unapproved drug, and no physician may lawfully administer or prescribe it for a patient without special permission from the FDA. Under most state laws, that physician must also obtained the informed and written consent of the patient to use an unapproved drug. Sanctions can range from warnings, to fines, to license suspension, to license revocation. Often there is reciprocity among states so that a physician whose license has been revoked in one state will not be able to obtain a license to practice medicine in another state."

Also http://www.casewatch.org/board/med/sica/settlement.shtml

Neither the United States Food And Drug Administration (hereinafter “FDA”) nor the Connecticut Department of Consumer Protection (hereinafter “DCP”) has approved DMPS for any purpose.

A skeptic would have checked their claims against factsIn the letter they say this drug has not been approved by the FDA for Mercury detoxification. This is a subtle misdirection, because it's not approved for anything at all. It has had no clinical trials, and this is not a clinical trial. I do hope they are not charging for this, the section about "no penalties" makes me think there is a charge.

I think this "study" needs reporting to the relavant authorities, which i am about to do.

http://drcranton.com/mercury/clinical_toxicology_of_mercury.htm

Chelators can remove methyl and ethyl mercury from the body; they cannot reverse damage that has already occured to the brain and central nervous system.

 

[Capsid]

Hang on b2b, the drug they are proposing to use is DMSA not DMPS. DMSA is FDA approved for lead toxicity, but not for mercury toxicity, so they will have to use it "off-label".

 

[back2basics]

Hang on b2b, the drug they are proposing to use is DMSA not DMPS. DMSA is FDA approved for lead toxicity, but not for mercury toxicity, so they will have to use it "off-label".

Yeah you are correct, my bad. However this is still a very, very suspect study.

They state that if high levels of Mercury are found in the blood after taking the drug, you can progress to stage two. As this drug has chelation properties, even normal people will have high levels in their blood after taking the substance.

 

[Capsid]

Yeah you are correct, my bad. However this is still a very, very suspect study.

They state that if high levels of Mercury are found in the blood after taking the drug, you can progress to stage two. As this drug has chelation properties, even normal people will have high levels in their blood after taking the substance.

I don't think that's right, they will be testing for mercury in the urine, the idea being that if the chelation worked it ought to be excreted. Then they do a placebo study which is not controlled for the effect of glutathione alone. It's poor science whatever.

 

[Hawk one]

Deleted. The whole post was a misunderstanding. Sorry.