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math problem

ravdin

Illuminator
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Messages
4,985
I figure this must be the right place to post a math problem I came across:

[latex]$${x}={\sqrt{7 + \sqrt{7 + \sqrt{7 + ... }}}}$$[/latex]

I took a stab at the problem, but I can't be doing it right. The approach I took was:

[latex]$${x^2}={7 + \sqrt{7 + \sqrt{7 + \sqrt{7 + ... }}}}$$[/latex]
[latex]$${x^2 = 7 + x}$$[/latex]
[latex]$${x^2 - x - 7 = 0}$$[/latex]

This means there are two solutions for x: [latex]$$\frac{1 + \sqrt{29}}{2}$$[/latex] and [latex]$$\frac{1 - \sqrt{29}}{2}$$[/latex]. So clearly I did something very wrong! Can anyone correct my error?
 
A quick check on Excel shows it is a series that converges on the approximate value 3.192582.

Your equation actually has four answers: another possibility is x2 + x + 7 = 0.

Your answer (1 + sqrt(29)) / 2 is 3.192582... .

Show some mathematical confidence, man!!
 
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It's the same mistake you'd make if you tried to solve for x = sqrt(4) the same way. You can't just square both sides of an equation. x = something_positive -> x2 = something_positive2 & x > 0.
 
If you substitute any positive number "X" for the 7, the series converges at

[latex]({1 + \sqrt{1 + 4X})/2[/latex]
 
Your equation should have a huge number of answers. The square root of a number has two answers. For example both 2 * 2 and -2 * -2 both give 4. So the square root of 4 is both 2 and -2.
 
It's the same mistake you'd make if you tried to solve for x = sqrt(4) the same way.
Wrong, there is no mistake. (Except if we're looking for complex solutions. But trying to allow for that in this problem hurts my brain.)
You can't just square both sides of an equation. x = something_positive -> x2 = something_positive2 & x > 0.
Correct, but you can when one side is a square root. The square root of 4 is pluss or minus 2.
 
Quite, the square root symbol means the positive root, always.
 
Quite, the square root symbol means the positive root, always.

Yah, at some point in University the voices in my head began to say "The non negative root of" every time I saw the symbol.

They're gone now. :eye-poppi
 
If we allow negative square roots, then there are an infinite number of solutions, such as (positive square roots only from here on):
latex.php


The lowest possible positive solution is:
latex.php


All solutions are in the ranges
latex.php
, and I suspect any value in those ranges is possible.
 
Your equation should have a huge number of answers. The square root of a number has two answers.
No it doesn't. A quadratic equation may have two solutions, but by convention, a square root sign represents one and only one non-negative number. That's why the quadratic formula needs the "plus or minus" (±) stipulation in front of the square root sign, and it's also how the Pythagorean Theorem, written as a formula for the length of the hypotenuse, returns only a positive answer.

The square root sign represents a specific value. It would make no sense for it to represent more than one value, else any function written with a square root sign (without the ±) would fail to comply with the definition of a function. (The quadratic formula is actually two formulas, or two functions, representing the two answers.)

There is only one solution to the original problem.
 
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So clearly I did something very wrong! Can anyone correct my error?

Okay, let's address this somewhat more broadly.

You have an equation that you attempt to "solve". (Strictly speaking, that isn't the case, because there is nothing to solve about that equation, and what you actually want to do is evaluate the limit of a certain sequence. But since you resorted to doing it with algebraic means, let's call it solving the equation.)

So you perform subsequent operations on the equation, and you get new and different equations, and you're hoping to get to one you would like. (Do you English-speaking guys have a better term for this than "simplifying"? A more general one that would equally well describe the operations in either direction?)

Now, the crucial thing here is: when performing those operations, you want to get equivalent equations. Two equations are equivalent if they have the same set of solutions. When you stick to a certain set of algebraic operations, you will always get an equivalent equation in the next step, so when you finally find the solution in the last step, you will have solved the original equation as well.

The error you did was that you used some operations that didn't satisfy this fundamental requirement. In some steps, you got from an equation A to an equation B, such that any solution to A would also satisfy B. That's good, you're half-way there - but the opposite implication must also hold: any solution to B must satisfy A. If that isn't true, you don't get the equivalence.

Let's review your steps:

1. x = c
(I will use c to denote the numeric expression that you're trying to evaluate)

2. x2 = c2
Here's your first error. Equation 2 isn't equivalent to equation 1. Anything that satisfies eq.1 will satisfy eq.2, but not everything that satisfies eq.2 will satisfy eq.1. Namely, x = -c is a solution to eq.2, but not to eq.1.

Squaring is not an operation that you can rely on to get equivalent equations.

3. x2 = 7 + c

This is a silent implicit step you made, and it is a valid one, because 7+c=c2, so eq.3 is equivalent to eq.2.

4. x2 = 7 + x

Here's your second error. You assumed that x=c, so you can make that substitution, but that would only work in the forward direction. In the opposite direction it fails, because eq.4 can have some solution other than x=c, and then the backward step is not valid (solution to eq.4 will not necessarily satisfy eq.3).

Here's a more obvious rendering of the error:
x=2
x=x (since we know that x=2)

But clearly, the second equation has solutions (such as x=3) that don't satisfy the first.

The rest of the steps seem fine.

One more thing: you actually can use steps that are only valid in the forward direction (i.e. that any solution to A will satisfy B, but not necessarily the other way around). If you do that, at least all solutions of the original equation will be among the solutions of the final equation - but you must keep in mind that the final equation may also have some other solutions that may not be solutions to the original equation. What you can do then is verify the solutions you get against the original equation, to see which ones are valid.

If we allow negative square roots, then there are an infinite number of solutions,

To what?
 
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No it doesn't. A quadratic equation may have two solutions, but by convention, a square root sign represents one and only one non-negative number. That's why the quadratic formula needs the "plus or minus" (±) stipulation in front of the square root sign, and it's also how the Pythagorean Theorem, written as a formula for the length of the hypotenuse, returns only a positive answer.

The square root sign represents a specific value. It would make no sense for it to represent more than one value, else any function written with a square root sign (without the ±) would fail to comply with the definition of a function. (The quadratic formula is actually two formulas, or two functions, representing the two answers.)

There is only one solution to the original problem.

Is the "original problem" really a problem? It looks like a function, to me, and I would write it as

f(x) = sqrt(x+sqrt(x+sqrt(x....

where x = 7

Alternatively, it could just be considered a series representation of a number (kind of like the Taylor series representation of pi) in which case, it is just a number, like pi. Maybe we can call it something else, but it is merely a number.
 
Squaring an equation is NOT an error. The squared equation is not equivalent to the unsquared one, and the squared one may have twice as many solutions as the unsquared one, so you have to eliminate impossible solutions for the unsquared equation if you have solved the squared one. However, as long as you are aware of all that, it's a viable procedure if the squared equation is much easier to solve than the unsquared one.
 
Squaring an equation is NOT an error. The squared equation is not equivalent to the unsquared one, and the squared one may have twice as many solutions as the unsquared one, so you have to eliminate impossible solutions for the unsquared equation if you have solved the squared one. However, as long as you are aware of all that, it's a viable procedure if the squared equation is much easier to solve than the unsquared one.

Nobody said any different.
 
It's really pretty clever, noting that because the series extends to infinity, you can chop off as much of it as you want up to the beginning of any of the square root signs, and what remains is still identical to the original expression.
 
OK, something hit me last night about this that has me curious. I realized that there are, in fact, some integral results. So for the function

f(x) = sqrt(x+sqrt(x+sqrt(x+sqrt(x+...

we have established that the "answer" to this is (1+sqrt(1+4x)/2

That means that when x = 2, f(x) = 2. And when x = 6, f(x) = 3. Integral solutions are also obtained for x = 12, 20, 30, 42, 56, etc, or for the series

x = 2*sum{i=1 to n} i

Now, aside from the quadratic formula solution, is there a reason to think that

a) this expression should actually return a rational number as a result?
b) why those values? That summation is just 2*(1+2+3+...+n)
 

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