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Math Problem: Figuring the Volume of a Sphere

Johnny Pneumatic

Master Poster
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Oct 15, 2003
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I've been trying to figure the volume of a sphere that is 4 meters in diameter. I used the equation 4/3 times pi times radius cubed. The radius in this case being two meters. The answer I got is 8.37333333 m^3
I did the same to figure the volume of a sphere 0.1 meters in diameter. The answer I got is 20.9333333 cm^3
Finally, I did the same to a sphere one centimeter in diameter and the answer I got is 0.0209333333 cm^3! Does this make sense? No! What's the deal, why is my math wrong?
 
I've been trying to figure the volume of a sphere that is 4 meters in diameter. I used the equation 4/3 times pi times radius cubed. The radius in this case being two meters. The answer I got is 8.37333333 m^3
I did the same to figure the volume of a sphere 0.1 meters in diameter. The answer I got is 20.9333333 cm^3
Finally, I did the same to a sphere one centimeter in diameter and the answer I got is 0.0209333333 cm^3! Does this make sense? No! What's the deal, why is my math wrong?
given the sizes you specified and your equation:
4m Dia=33.5 m^3
.1 m dia=.5236m^3
.01m dia=.0005236m^3

Diameter=2R
 
I've been trying to figure the volume of a sphere that is 4 meters in diameter. I used the equation 4/3 times pi times radius cubed. The radius in this case being two meters. The answer I got is 8.37333333 m^3

2 cubed is 8

8*4/3 = 10 2/3

10 2/3 * pi = 33 or so.

Your answer looks way too rational for a product of pi


I did the same to figure the volume of a sphere 0.1 meters in diameter. The answer I got is 20.9333333 cm^3
Finally, I did the same to a sphere one centimeter in diameter and the answer I got is 0.0209333333 cm^3! Does this make sense? No! What's the deal, why is my math wrong?

Again, you shouldn't be getting rational numbers for answers.
 
I've been trying to figure the volume of a sphere that is 4 meters in diameter. I used the equation 4/3 times pi times radius cubed. The radius in this case being two meters. The answer I got is 8.37333333 m^3
That's 4/3 x 3.14 x 2. You forgot the "cubed" part.
I did the same to figure the volume of a sphere 0.1 meters in diameter. The answer I got is 20.9333333 cm^3
Same thing.
Finally, I did the same to a sphere one centimeter in diameter and the answer I got is 0.0209333333 cm^3! Does this make sense? No! What's the deal, why is my math wrong?
This was weird, I got 2.09333 for the "wrong" result.
 
2/3 of the volume of a cylinder that size. 33.46 cubic whatevers.
 
Your answer looks way too rational for a product of pi
Yeah, if you want nine digits in your answer, you should use nine digits of pi.

This was weird, I got 2.09333 for the "wrong" result.
I think that it depends on whether you use .01 m or 1 cm. That's the thing about math: if you do it correctly, you get the same result, no matter what method you use. If you do it incorrectly, which wrong answer you get can depend on things that should be irrelevant, such as whether you use .01 m or 1 cm.
 
[digression]

Regarding the volume of a sphere, as a curiosity, anyone with some multivariate calculus knowledge can try to prove the following formula for the volume of a solid sphere of radius R in n dimensions

latex.php


It's a bit complicated to prove, but you can check that it reproduces the usual results with 2 (circle) and 3 (usual solid sphere). The sphere is defined to be the set of points with R^2 >= x_1^2+x_2^2+...+x_n^2. This formula seems artificial, but it shows up a few times. For example, in statistical physics when we are counting the number of microscopic states.
[/digression]
 
Hmm, if you're dealing with fractal dimension, n doesn't have to be an integer. I wonder if the formula still holds?

If n is even, the formula is much more simple:
V2n(R)=[(pi^n)/(n!)]R^2n

The "surface area" is the derivative:
S2n(R)=[2(pi^n)/((n-1)!))]R^(2n-1)
or
Sn=[2(pi^(n/2))/(gamma(n/2))]R^(n-1)
 
Hmm, if you're dealing with fractal dimension, n doesn't have to be an integer. I wonder if the formula still holds?
It does, at least in some sense. It is definitely continuous. At some point in the derivation, one arrives at (notice Vn(R) = R^n Vn(1)):

Vn(1) Gamma(n/2 + 1) = I

where I can be written in the form

latex.php


So, in the last step, you could extend the formula to arbitrary n and the derivation would still hold, at least formally. It's up to you if you want to
give some meaning to the fractal dimension.
 
I've been trying to figure the volume of a sphere that is 4 meters in diameter. I used the equation 4/3 times pi times radius cubed. The radius in this case being two meters. The answer I got is 8.37333333 m^3
I did the same to figure the volume of a sphere 0.1 meters in diameter. The answer I got is 20.9333333 cm^3
Finally, I did the same to a sphere one centimeter in diameter and the answer I got is 0.0209333333 cm^3! Does this make sense? No! What's the deal, why is my math wrong?

You're not cubing the radius.

3*8.373433333/(4*pi) = 1.9989

Incidentally, you also have the unit change wrong. 0.20933 m3 = 209330 cm3.
 
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So, in the last step, you could extend the formula to arbitrary n and the derivation would still hold, at least formally. It's up to you if you want to
give some meaning to the fractal dimension.

Are you really talking about a "fractal" dimension, or do you mean a "fractional" dimension? I could understand the concept of the latter, but don't know what the first would be.
 
Are you really talking about a "fractal" dimension, or do you mean a "fractional" dimension? I could understand the concept of the latter, but don't know what the first would be.
When studying fractals (strange attractors, etc.) we find structures that do not fit well into our preconceived classes of 'curves', 'surfaces', etc.

The concept of dimension of a space has several meanings. We can say that a vector space has dimension n, if there are n linearly independent vectors such that they span the whole space. On a manifold (think: hypersurface) of dimension n, there are n local bijections between the manifold and a vector space of the same dimension. A connected topological space has dimension 1, if it is separated in two disconnected parts by removing one of its elements... All these examples have integer dimension and are quite reasonable and even intuitive.

Enter fractals. Consider Cantor's set, formed by all numbers with no 1's in their expansion on base 3 (for a nicer, geometrical definition and diagram, see the link). This is certainly not a line with dimension 1, neither a discrete set of points with dimension 0[1]. It seems we need a more general concept of dimension, accomodating rational (and, perhaps, even real) values for the dimension of a set. Hausdorff thought about this around 1920, so now we can manipulate noninteger dimensions. I was deliberately vague in my post, because there are several definitions (I will give a brief note below) so I used the general term 'fractal dimension'. This is usually (even in some texts) used as a synonym of one (or, worse, more) of the following definitions:

The first idea (and the simpler one) is the concept of capacity dimension. Assume you have a set A embedded in 3D space. We ask ourselves for the number of cubes of side x needed to cover A, that is, so that each point in A is at least in one of the cubes. Let N(x) be that number. If the set A is a curve of lenght L, a line segment for instance, it is clear that, if x -> 0, we wil get N(x) ~ L/x. If A is a surface, N(x) ~ S/x^2. If it is a volume V, N~V/x^3, etc. In the more general situation of a manifold of dimension d, embedded in a dimension n>d, the number of hypercubes, when x -> 0, will be proportional to x-d. Precisely, we have

latex.php


This is not an integer sometimes. For the Cantor Set, if we take x=3-k, it is clear that N(x)=2k (clear, that is, if you follow the previous link and see the geometrical interpretation). So the Cantor set has capacity dimension d = lim_{k->oo} log (2^k) / log (3^k)=log(2)/log(3) ~ 0.6309. Cantor's Set is a bit more than halfway between a point and a line.

Hausdorff's original concept is a bit more involved. I'm not going to define it here (if you are interested, search for 'Hausdorff dimension'). Suffice it to say that d_H >= d, and that both are the same in many physical cases. It is difficult to calculate, a lot of computer time, so another definition is sometimes invoked: pointwise dimension.

When a set has noninteger dimension, we call it 'fractal'. Hence the name fractal dimension. Examples of complicated fractals arise when studying stability of differential equations (this is what is meant by 'chaos'). A differential equation is said to be stable if (roughly, the real definitions are more subtle) two solutions, initially close together (similar initial values), will keep together as time passes. (Linear equations are an example of this).

If, however, we do not have linear equations, then all bets are off. Anything can happen. Fluids are an example of such behaviour. They are governed by Navier-Stokes's equation, which is quite complex and definitely nonlinear. This is why the wheather guys on TV miserably fail once and again. Fluids are intrinsically unstable, even if we know the initial conditions with a very high accuracy, our solution may be far off from the real one, even if the 'real' solution has very similar starting conditions. (Butterfly effect: the disturbance on the initial conditions by the butterfly may be enough). Studying (generally with numerical methods) these equations, we arrive at 'phase maps' with fractal behaviour. Example: Lorenz's Attractor, which arose precisely in atmospheric problems.

As I said, I was deliberately vague in my previous post. I didn't specify which of these definitions would correspond to a noninteger n in the formula for the volume of the n-sphere. Frankly, the reason for this is that I hadn't even thought of plugging noninteger values in it (until AV pointed it out). It probably makes sense in some way, it is continuous. But you would have to define very carefully 'sphere' to allow for those values.


-------------
[1] Note for the initiated: its Lebesgue measure is, however, 0, even though it has uncountably infinite elements.
 
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When a set has noninteger dimension, we call it 'fractal'. Hence the name fractal dimension.

OK, this is what I figured you were talking about, but it seems the "fractal" description is odd. My suggestion, "fractional" seems more appropriate (for example, we talk about "fractional exponents" for the non-integer). Granted, it works a little less well with irrational values (although root(2) can still be considered root(2)/1, I guess)

But then, you are talking to someone who gets bothered by the inappropriate use of the verb "quantitate" when "quantify" is usually more appropriate.

Here's the part where the terminology bothers me:

frac·tal n. A geometric pattern that is repeated at ever smaller scales to produce irregular shapes and surfaces that cannot be represented by classical geometry. Fractals are used especially in computer modeling of irregular patterns and structures in nature.

frac·tion·al adj. 1. Of, relating to, or constituting a fraction. 2. Very small; insignificant: a minor candidate's fractional share of the vote. 3. Being in fractions or pieces.

It appear to me that #3 of fractional is a much more appropriate description of what you are talking about than the fractal.

I realize that these aren't necessarily mathematical definitions, and fractal could have a mathematical definition that I was not aware of.
 
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My suggestion, "fractional" seems more appropriate (for example, we talk about "fractional exponents" for the non-integer). Granted, it works a little less well with irrational values (although root(2) can still be considered root(2)/1, I guess)
You said it yourself, 'fractional' doesn't work with irrational numbers. The important part is not that its value is not an integer, 'Fractal dimension' is just a term that signifies we are talking of a more elaborate concept of dimension than 'how many numbers do I need to identify the points'. I gave a somewhat naive definition of 'fractal' as a set with noninteger capacity dimension. The proper definition is 'A set whose capacity dimension is greater than its topological dimension'. That it turns out not to be an integer is, if you will, a secondary result.

As I said, it's not a very technical word. I mentioned three definitions of dimension, but there are many more: Lyapunov, correlation, information, ...
And, even worse, different authors use different definitions. You can think of 'fractal dimension' as a term that encompasses all of them.
 
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You said it yourself, 'fractional' doesn't work with irrational numbers.

Although see the definitions I listed, where fractional can be either be in fractions OR pieces.

If I say I ate just a fraction of the pie, it doesn't imply a rational number.

As I said, not a big deal, and I was more curious to see that it is actually called "fractal" and not "fractional" which is more appropriate description, at least of the simplistic version.
 
Here's the part where the terminology bothers me:

frac·tal n. A geometric pattern that is repeated at ever smaller scales to produce irregular shapes and surfaces that cannot be represented by classical geometry. Fractals are used especially in computer modeling of irregular patterns and structures in nature.

I realize that these aren't necessarily mathematical definitions, and fractal could have a mathematical definition that I was not aware of.

Other definitions of fractal do exist, and some are more appliable to this discussion than others.

A definition of fractal that I use is that it is a surface1 that is not differentiable at any point. One way to achieve that is to use the 'repeated pattern' fractal, but many fractals exist that do not have repeated sections (the Mandelbrot set is one example).

1 Normally, I also require it to be a continous surface as well, but that could exclude such examples as the Cantor set already mentioned, depending on your definition of continous.
 

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