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Marriage between first cousins

Luciana

Skeptical Carioca
Luciana
Joined
Aug 5, 2001
Messages
10,984
Location
Rio de Janeiro - RJ
I'm astounded by learning that in some US states marrying a first cousin is prohibited.

The quotes below are from Wired, but I suggest reading the entire article, which is short and enlightening.

Thirty-one states outlaw marriage between first cousins, making the United States the only developed country in which the practice is regularly banned.

(snip)

"Unlike the situation in Britain and much of Europe, cousin marriage in the U.S. was associated not with the aristocracy and upper middle class but with much easier targets: immigrants and the rural poor," they write.

(snip)

Whatever their motivations, the laws are not supported by science. According to the National Society of Genetic Counselors, birth defects are 2 to 3 percent more common in children born to first cousins than among the general population — a real risk, but not enough to justify the bans
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In an age where the right to get marriage is being fought over by gays, why no one stands up for cousins who are in love with each other?

And how come it became associated with backwardness, poverty? In Europe it was common practice among the royalty. It must have been common practice in the vast majority of tribes throughout history.

To deny marriage to a couple because their children is at higher propensity for genetic disorders is a major can of worms we don't want to get into, and one which I don't foresee outside of a totalitarian society. So why can't first cousins get married in so many US states?
 
Luciana said:
And how come it became associated with backwardness, poverty? In Europe it was common practice among the royalty. It must have been common practice in the vast majority of tribes throughout history.
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Rich, poor... they all look the same.

prince-charles.jpg
inbreds.jpg
 
Eh? Is there a genetic connection between incest and freakishly large ears?

(That picture on the right - YOWZA. It's like the "Wingnut Brothers.")
 
Luciana, are you really that unfamiliar with American culture? It's a staple of Appalachian humor (and American humor in general) to joke that so-called "rednecks" marry their cousins. This pertains not to "poor people" but to a certain type of poor Caucasian person living in certain parts of the country.

It is partially supported by the truth; in parts of the country where very few people live, inbreeding is common and even necessary.

I believe marrying a first cousin is illegal in Poland, too.

I believe it's a good thing. A person you share close relatives with, who you've known your entire life, who you might have considered a sister or a brother, is not the ideal romantic partner.
 
EeneyMinnieMoe said:
Luciana, are you really that unfamiliar with American culture? It's a staple of Appalachian humor (and American humor in general) to joke that so-called "rednecks" marry their cousins. This pertains not to "poor people" but to a certain type of poor Caucasian person living in certain parts of the country.
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I did know this, but I had no idea it could be illegal. Also, I shelved it in the category of "harmless fun" with another region's characterizations. I did not know this could have legal repercussions or that some people would find the practice objectionable per se, maybe only it was not so common in other regions of the country.

It is partially supported by the truth; in parts of the country where very few people live, inbreeding is common and even necessary.

I believe marrying a first cousin is illegal in Poland, too.

I believe it's a good thing. A person you share close relatives with, who you've known your entire life, who you might have considered a sister or a brother, is not the ideal romantic partner.
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Why not? What if they lived separately and only meet once a year? Or if they become adults and fall in love, really, why not? People get married to childhood friends, to their high school sweethearts, to people the whole family despises, to people 20 years their senior, etc.

Live and let live. If someone thinks marrying to a first cousin is awkward and icky, ok. If two adults fall in love and want to get married, why not? It's discrimination, for sure.
 
Oh, and not to mention that, without DNA tests, how can you really determine they're first cousins? If one father isn't the biological one, but believes he is... then a couple might not be first cousins at all.
 
Why stop at first cousins? Why not siblings? Hell, why not marry your parent? Oh sure, you'll have to get rid of that pesky other parent first but after that it's clear sailing!
 
Hm, my ickiness metrics don't get high enough for cousins, or if it is like a step-something by marriage when both of the "kids" are older and they end up living together and then they get really close and... Okay, I should stop reading romance novels. For me it is the blood relation that gets me grossed out.

But to be honest, aren't all incest laws because of the ickiness factor? I mean, if one is going to use the genetic defect of children born from such a couple, then should we also be banning relationships when one partner has genetic disorder X?

And that is eugenics and you are supporting Hitler with incest laws!!!

(Forgive me, I couldn't help it)

I have heard that in the case of brother/sister/father/mother incest, from a psychological perspective, it is never considered consensual. But I've never been interested enough to do more indepth research.
 
Nineteen US States allow it. People all over the developed and developing world do it. It's probably been done through mankind's history since the very beginning. You probably have it in your past. So why some places prohibit it?

How come people 50 years old apart can get married? Why not first cousins? Why prohibit it at all?

It's useless to point out slippery slopes. By that line of thought, every liberalization of any kind will spell doom to mankind. The argument must always be - what's against it? If gays can fight for their rights to get married, why not first cousins?
 
gtc said:
Who's stopping them fighting for their right to marry?
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No one. I was expressing my opinion and asking for insights from people of this forum. And I got very little, if any.

Chances are that cousin couples go to another State to get married if it's prohibited in theirs. In that case, the impulse to fight the law diminishes considerably.
 
Personally I don't think it should be illegal. Even if someone wants to marry his mother, he should be able to (assuming his mother wants it too :D). I can see potential problems with genetic diseases but this is not a reason to prohibit the marriage.
 
New Scientist: Ban on first-cousin marriages 'not necessary'

()Bittle reviewed 48 studies from 11 countries. He found that infant mortality is only 1.2 per cent higher among the children of first cousins compared with children that have more distantly related parents. That is in line with a 2002 review suggesting that first-cousin children are less than 3 per cent more likely to have birth defects.

However, the risk of genetic disease in a particular population may depend on how genetically diverse it is. Paediatrician Peter Corry of St Luke's Hospital in Bradford, UK, estimates that among people in the city of Pakistani descent, 55 per cent of whom marry first cousins, the risk of a recessive genetic disorder - the type often due to related parents - is 10 to 15 times that in the general population. A 2004 study found that 13 out of every 1000 Asian children born in the area had recessive disorders. "But it is important to remember that there are lots of other, non-genetic reasons for illness and death in children," Corry says. "And even in places like Bradford most people, even cousins, have healthy children."
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The Straight Dope:

The U.S. is virtually alone among developed nations in outlawing marriage among first cousins. European countries have no such prohibition.

...

The problem isn't cousin marriage per se, however, but rather how many such genes are floating around in the family pool. If the pool's pretty clean, the likelihood of genetic defects resulting from cousin marriage is low.

...

the formerly high incidence of congenital defects, specifically hemophilia, among European royal families isn't the classic demonstration of the perils of inbreeding that everybody thinks it is. The short explanation is that hemophilia is an X-chromosome-related characteristic, transmitted only through the female line. The children of royal female carriers would have been at risk no matter whom their mothers had married.
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There's more in the Straigh Dope article on the differences between Europe and the US.
 
*Shrug*

I don't care what consenting people do. Even if birth defects were absolutely certain, marriage != childbirth.
 
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Ysidro said:
Why stop at first cousins? Why not siblings? Hell, why not marry your parent? Oh sure, you'll have to get rid of that pesky other parent first but after that it's clear sailing!
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Well there are two aspects to that. From the genetics point of view, it's very easy to draw a line between parents and siblings, and everyone else. If the risk of defects with first cousins is noticeable, although small, the risk with people who share half their genes will be very significant.

The other aspect is power and responsibility. Teachers aren't supposed to have relationships with students. Doctors aren't supposed to have relationships with patients. Even relationships between colleagues are often frowned upon and are be banned in many workplaces, especially if they involve people of different ranks. A the parent-child relationship is far closer and more unequal than any of these, so obviously romantic relationships are considered bad. Siblings are more of a fuzzy area, but it's not at all unusual for older siblings to assume a parental or mentor kind of role and therefore face the same problems.

Tsukasa Buddha said:
But to be honest, aren't all incest laws because of the ickiness factor? I mean, if one is going to use the genetic defect of children born from such a couple, then should we also be banning relationships when one partner has genetic disorder X?
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I think part of the reason here is historical. In the past, a person with a significant genetic disorder would be much less likely to survive, and certainly less likely to live a productive and happy life. You wouldn't need to ban relationships involving people with genetic disorders because there wouldn't be much chance of them happening in the first place. On the other hand, relationships between perfectly healthy siblings were entirely possible and so, assuming that your goal is to prevent birth defects, banning them could be seen as a sensible idea.

It really comes down to the idea that laws are only made to prevent people doing things that they actually want to do. If no-one has ever tried to do something, no-one will bother making a law against it. If most people with significant birth defects are locked up in institutions or considered spawn of the devil, you don't need to make an effort to stop people marrying them.

There's also the important difference between known and unknown risks. A person with a genetic defect will know they have it (I'm talking only about obvious things, not ones requiring modern medicine to detect), so any choice to have children will take that into consideration. Even if you don't understand the exact chances and mechanism, the basics of hereditary have been known for centuries. On the other hand, healthy siblings may have no idea of the risk of their children having genetic defects. In a time where most people were fairly uneducated, it may be much easier to simply ban incest rather than trying to teach everyone about the potential problems involved.
 
CFLarsen said:
There's more in the Straigh Dope article on the differences between Europe and the US.
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In most of Europe you can even marry your sister/brother.

Lots of creepy people in Europe.

Even zoos don't mate animal siblings.
 
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