Magi help.

[l0rca]

Would you guys help me? I'm looking for reliable sources on the internet that show that Christianity Hijacked the Magi story for the birth of Christ.

I also seem to remember that Christian scholars admit this falsehood in the bible.

URLs, please?

 

[athon]

Bible scholar Barbara Theiring has a nice theory that the magi of the biblical story were actually part of the Jewish cult Herod established. From what I recall, this was explored in her book, 'Jesus the Man'.

Her ideas are a little left field, but I do admit she backs it all up with some pretty sound reasoning and admits it's conjecture.

Athon

 

[andyandy]

I'm not sure if this is exactly what your after, but it sounds like you're interested in the influence of Zoroastrianism upon Christianity....

Here's a brief overview of Zoroastrian teachings....

After his revelation from Ahura Mazda, Zoroaster proclaimed his new faith to his countrymen. He declared that Ahriman corrupted the creation of Ahura Mazda, and enticed men to believe lies. Thus, the good world is mixed with evil. Man has to join the Amesha Spentas through good works, good thoughts, and good words. Although eternal like Ahura Mazda, Ahriman is ignorant and destined to defeat. Upon the death of the individual, their life is judged. The totality of their good and bad deeds are weighed. Each person must cross the bridge of chinvat, the bridge of separation. If one’s good deeds outweigh the bad, the bridge widens and the individual crosses into Paradise, where Ahura Mazda dwells. If the totality of one’s life results in evil being prevalent, then the bridge narrows to a razor’s edge, and the miscreant plunges into hell, a place of darkness, torment, smoke, and misery. Ahriman rules this wasteland of misery. If one’s good and bad remain equal, one goes to a gray existence, experiencing neither joy nor sorrow.11
While Ahriman corrupted the creation of Ahura Mazda, it is Ahura Mazda who possesses the final word. Hinted at in the Gathas, later Zoroastrian doctrine developed the idea of the Saoshyant (one who brings benefit/world savior). Over the final three millennia, three Saoshyants would be sent, each one born of a virgin. The virgin would bathe in a sacred lake where Zoroaster’s seed had been hidden. The final Saoshyant would come at the end of time and lead the righteous against Ahriman and his minions. Evil will be conquered and the Saoshyant will usher Renovation (Frasho-Kereti). Ahura Mazda’s creation will be restored.12
This cosmic drama will be concluded with a general resurrection (both good and evil) and a final judgment. All mankind will be resurrected from the dead.

so, it's very easy to see the parallels with the 3 monothestic faiths - with regards to Jesus, read the virgin born Saoshyant.

To give one Gospel example, the account of Matthew demonstrates (however unknowingly) the reach of Zoroastrianism into the life and teaching of Jesus of Nazareth. In Matthew 1:21, an angel (named Gabriel in Luke’s account) tells the Nazarene carpenter, Joseph, that Mary, his virgin bride-to-be, is with child, and would give birth to one who would “save his people from their sins.” 35
Early on, the virgin born, world redeemer (Saoshyant) theme is echoed. Obviously, Christianity differs from Zoroastrianism in that Christians believe that Jesus died as a substitute for their sins. Zoroastrianism does contain such a teaching, but the point is that Christians, and earlier Jews, borrowed concepts from Zoroastrianism and shaped them to fit their needs.
Throughout the chapters of Matthew, echoes of Zoroastrian doctrine can be seen. In chapter two, the Magi (Zoroastrian priests) appear in order to pay homage. Once again, an angel appears to Joseph and Mary and warns them to flee to Egypt to escape being murdered by Herod the Great. This bloodthirsty tyrant would suffer no rivals to the throne. Unbeknownst to Herod, this baby would serve as the ruler of the cosmos, not just of Israel. Chapter three gives the account of John the Baptist of the baptizing of Jesus. Just as Spenta Mainyu (the good or holy spirit) is the servant of Ahura Mazda, the Holy Spirit descends from heaven and anoints Jesus for his mission.
snip.
[Jesus] the Messiah/Redeemer, He will judge all men, and He will usher in a time of renewal and resurrection; all foundation stones of Zoroastrian belief. Early Christians (as well as the Essenes) built their theology on a foundation of popular Jewish theology, both of which harken back to Persia and Zoroaster. 37

http://historicaltextarchive.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=754

I'm not sure if Christianity (and Judaism) "hijacked" the magi beliefs, but they were certainly strongly influenced by the Zoroastrian Magi

 

[Squishua]

http://www.bobkwebsite.com/egyptianmythvjesusmyth.html

 

[Zygar]

http://www.bobkwebsite.com/egyptianmythvjesusmyth.html

Given that that site doesn't give any references other than "such and such is carved in stone in temple X" I think this is a hoax.

 

[Squishua]

Given that that site doesn't give any references other than "such and such is carved in stone in temple X" I think this is a hoax.

Temple of Luxor, in Luxor, Egypt, from the time of King Amenhotep III (1538-1501 B.C.).

-Squish

 

[Zygar]

Temple of Luxor, in Luxor, Egypt, from the time of King Amenhotep III (1538-1501 B.C.).

-Squish

I'd like to see a reputable source for the translations. Particularly I'd like to see an original source for the Horus myth. I can do an item by item debunking/affirming of the rest if you really want, but I've never heard of most of the items that associate Horus with Jesus.

Anyway, it seems like a bunch of junk made up by an anti-Christian. Which is silly considering how little need we have to make up stories to make Christianity look bad.

 

[Art Vandelay]

You don't think this will convince anyone, do you? If there are stories that predate the birth of Christ, well, obviously they were inspired by the birth of Christ. It just adds to the glory of God the He can inspire people to write stories about His son before His son is even born.

 

[Zygar]

You don't think this will convince anyone, do you? If there are stories that predate the birth of Christ, well, obviously they were inspired by the birth of Christ. It just adds to the glory of God the He can inspire people to write stories about His son before His son is even born.

You're not Mormon by chance are you?

 

[Squishua]

You don't think this will convince anyone, do you?

Of course not.

Just food for thought.

-Squish

 

[Zygar]

Of course not.

Just food for thought.

-Squish

Food for thought that has no solid references. AKA a hoax.

 

[l0rca]

No, there was some good information on these guys before in this forum. One of the sources pointed to here showed that a Christian scholar, or the Catholic church, admitted that the birth of Christ is a hijacked/made up story.

 

[Jorghnassen]

No, there was some good information on these guys before in this forum. One of the sources pointed to here showed that a Christian scholar, or the Catholic church, admitted that the birth of Christ is a hijacked/made up story.

Made up after the fact to fit prophecies (supposing there really was a historical Jesus), sure, I mean, if the guy really did start preaching around the age of 30, it's very likely that any info about his birth would not have been recorded in the first place, so the stories relating to the birth may well be fabricated. But to claim it's copied off Egyptian mythology is a whole other story. When parallels are drawn between supposed elements of Egyptian mythology (and others) and elements of the birth of Jesus narrative that aren't in the Gospels (such as giving a specific number of Magi), you know that this isn't serious research from a reliable source.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Zygar,

I can see why you have some problem with that page but not all of it.

1. The Annuncation

The god Thoth announces to a virgin, Isis, the impending birth of her son, Horus.

There are plenty of variations of most Egyptian myths, but this one is a stretch. Isis was the epitome of adult woman's many possible roles -- lover of Osiris, faithful wife, mother, protector of her child and husband, eventually queen of heaven. Most of the conception stories for Horus have the reconstituted Osiris (after Seth chops him into bits and Isis reassembles him) serving as father before he descends to become god of the world of the dead. I wouldn't be too surprised, though, if there were some later New Kingdom story that had Isis as a virgin. I suppose it's possible. But since she is more associated with regeneration (amongst many other things) and marital love (she and Osiris hug in the womb of Tefnut), Isis as virgin is a little out there.

2. The Immaculate Conception

The god Kneph (Holy Ghost) and the goddess Hathor hold crosses, sign of life, to the head and nostrils of Isis and mystically impregnate
her.

No, that would be the ankh. Not a cross precisely, at least not the type of cross that Jesus was supposedly crucified upon. This one is definitely a stretcher if the attempt is show that the cross is what is important. Interesting that Hathor would be one to help impregnate Isis, though, since she is more the party girl and associated with erotic love/sex/drunkeness/war, etc. and since she marries Horus.

3. The Birth of the Child God

The mother, Isis, sits on a midwife's stool, and the newly born infant, Horus, is held by attendants.

Actually that one is accurate. The Isis-Horus manifestation was a precursor for the madonna-child characterizations later. Isis was shown holding Horus in her lap much like Mary with Jesus.

4. The Adoration

The infant Horus receives homage from gods and Three Kings, the Magi, who offer him gifts.

I seem to recall this story as well about Horus -- it all plays into the "he is going to be king and overthrow Seth, the usurper" motif. The Magi part is a stretch, though. The gods did pay homage in some of the variations of the story that I have previously heard.

I think someone may be cherry-picking old Egyptian myths that they can force into these roles. I wouldn't be too shocked, though, if there were not some variations that are accurately described above.

 

[Zygar]

I think someone may be cherry-picking old Egyptian myths that they can force into these roles. I wouldn't be too shocked, though, if there were not some variations that are accurately described above.

I also support the jist of these 4, although they've obviously been digging deep in the attempts to parallel them with Jesus.

The real clincher is the "Egyptian Horus Myth". Someone obviously made this up to match precisely with the Jesus myth. I can find absolutely no reliable references to any of the significant points listed in this comparison. I call the entire Horus Myth referenced there a hoax.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

I'm not sure I would use the term "made up" (except for the obvious fact that all the myths were made up by someone at some time), since those myths exist. The problem really arises because there is one (well, really two) Jesus birth stories, and there are many, many variations on the Horus birth story. There is no such thing as THE Egyptian Horus Myth. There are many Horus myths and many concern his birth. There is the Isis thinks up Horus as a savior, the Isis and Osiris have sex after he is put back together (which is interesting in itself because there is one myth in which Isis finds all his parts but the one bit he needs to impregnate her which was swallowed by a fish and remains in the Nile -- generative powers), and the one involving Hathor. There are probably many others that I have never run across.

So, technically, what was presented on that site is true to some extent. The problem is that one is given the impression, as you say, that there is one Horus myth that corresponds one to one with the Jesus story/myth. As with most things reality is a bit more complicated as these various Horus myth points are compilations from several different myths cobbled together.

 

[Zygar]

I'm not sure I would use the term "made up" (except for the obvious fact that all the myths were made up by someone at some time), since those myths exist. The problem really arises because there is one (well, really two) Jesus birth stories, and there are many, many variations on the Horus birth story. There is no such thing as THE Egyptian Horus Myth. There are many Horus myths and many concern his birth. There is the Isis thinks up Horus as a savior, the Isis and Osiris have sex after he is put back together (which is interesting in itself because there is one myth in which Isis finds all his parts but the one bit he needs to impregnate her which was swallowed by a fish and remains in the Nile -- generative powers), and the one involving Hathor. There are probably many others that I have never run across.

As far as I know, you've got the three primary Osiris myths. I can definitely see the correlation between Osiris and Jesus. I've been pointing it out since I was a boy in sunday school. I especially love the one about his "part" getting swallowed. Very fitting. It is also the only one that jives with the immaculate conception.

So, technically, what was presented on that site is true to some extent. The problem is that one is given the impression, as you say, that there is one Horus myth that corresponds one to one with the Jesus story/myth. As with most things reality is a bit more complicated as these various Horus myth points are compilations from several different myths cobbled together.

Itemized complaints below:

4. The Adoration of Horus by Three Kings/Magi Bearing Gifts

Three kings? Where is that in the bible or in the Horus Myth?

1. Horus was the son of Seb, an earthly father

Not according to any myth I know of. Seb was his grandfather.

2. Horus stayed with his mother until the age of twelve

I am aware of no specifics on this matter, and it doesn't jive with either of the horus myths which I know.

3. Between the ages of twelve to thirty there is no record of the life of Horus

Age has nothing to do with it. His life is not recorded with ages.

4. At age thirty, Horus was baptized by Anup

I love this one. "Anup the Baptizer" doesn't exist. I've never heard of him. I wasn't even aware they baptized people in Egypt.

5. By his baptism Horus was transformed into the beloved and only begotten Son of the Father, the Holy Spirit, represented by a bird

Umm, Horus was always a hawk. He didn't magically transform because of being dipped in or dribbled with water.

 

[Ichneumonwasp]

Three kings? Where is that in the bible or in the Horus Myth?

Good complaint. In neither. As far as I know only the other gods were in attendance in one of the Horus myths.

Not according to any myth I know of. Seb was his grandfather.

Not a biggie but I assume there is a typo in there. Geb is earth and his grandfather. Seth is uncle.

I am aware of no specifics on this matter, and it doesn't jive with either of the horus myths which I know.

That one might be possible, but I fully agree. I've never heard that story and think it was likely invented for the purpose of that website.

I love this one. "Anup the Baptizer" doesn't exist. I've never heard of him. I wasn't even aware they baptized people in Egypt.

Maybe he was friends with Vigo the Carpathian? I think I saw them drinking a pina colada at Trader Vics one time.

Umm, Horus was always a hawk. He didn't magically transform because of being dipped in or dribbled with water.

Again not a biggie, but he was a falcon. Once a falcon always a falcon. He probably ante-dated most of the other gods, as he seems to have been a local sun diety from upper Egypt and retained aspects of the sun idea especially in his association with Hathor.

 

[Jorghnassen]

As far as I know, you've got the three primary Osiris myths. I can definitely see the correlation between Osiris and Jesus. I've been pointing it out since I was a boy in sunday school. I especially love the one about his "part" getting swallowed. Very fitting. It is also the only one that jives with the immaculate conception.

You seem to confuse virgin birth and Immaculate conception. It's a common mistake but the two are completely different concepts, and the very idea of original sin is absent from Egyptian myths, as far as I know, so there cannot be immaculate conception outside of judeo-christian religions (unless some other religion also has an original sin aspect somewhere).

 

[Zygar]

Not a biggie but I assume there is a typo in there. Geb is earth and his grandfather. Seth is uncle.

Ooops. I knew it sounded wrong.

he was a falcon.

Ooops again. Of course he was a falcon. Although I think it's been a common mistake given that there was also a hawk god.

He probably ante-dated most of the other gods, as he seems to have been a local sun diety from upper Egypt and retained aspects of the sun idea especially in his association with Hathor.

IIRC he was has some of the oldest artifacts associated with him. I thought the sun god part came as a result of being temporarily combined with Ra.