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Lucid Dreaming

Brian Jackson

Graduate Poster
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
1,112
Hi All.

For the past few years, I've been practicing Lucid Dreaming (knowing you're dreaming during the dream) and have gotten fairly good at having them semi-regularly. I do this purely for fun, as the sheer entertainment value of playing God in my dreams is priceless... (especially the flying or sexy ones!)

I've done much research and experimenting with them, primarily using audio cues during REM with earphones. I have a sleep mask called a NovaDreamer that detects REM and has an output signal that I wired to my PC to play back pre-recorded (voice) math problems... seems to work best at "waking up" the logic parts of my brain and makes me more receptive to the idea that I might be dreaming... but that's another topic.

My concern is that many folks I've talked with tend to attach some kind of religious or spiritual significance to lucid dreaming. This bothers me because I'd rather have a discussion with other LD'ers that is stripped of "enlightenment" overtones. A lot of the boards on the net tend to group LDs with out-of-body experiences and TM, which in my opinion is pure quackery. LD'ing is nothing more than simply realizing when you're dreaming, that's it. There's no mystery/magic about it.

I'm just wondering why it is that LD'ing tends to get mistakenly grouped with quackery that may as well be voodoo or witchcraft. Are there any others on this forum who know when they're dreaming and have noticed this trend?

Thanks,
Brian Jackson

more info = lucidity.com
 
Hi All.

For the past few years, I've been practicing Lucid Dreaming (knowing you're dreaming during the dream) and have gotten fairly good at having them semi-regularly. I do this purely for fun, as the sheer entertainment value of playing God in my dreams is priceless... (especially the flying or sexy ones!)

I've done much research and experimenting with them, primarily using audio cues during REM with earphones. I have a sleep mask called a NovaDreamer that detects REM and has an output signal that I wired to my PC to play back pre-recorded (voice) math problems... seems to work best at "waking up" the logic parts of my brain and makes me more receptive to the idea that I might be dreaming... but that's another topic.

My concern is that many folks I've talked with tend to attach some kind of religious or spiritual significance to lucid dreaming. This bothers me because I'd rather have a discussion with other LD'ers that is stripped of "enlightenment" overtones. A lot of the boards on the net tend to group LDs with out-of-body experiences and TM, which in my opinion is pure quackery. LD'ing is nothing more than simply realizing when you're dreaming, that's it. There's no mystery/magic about it.

I'm just wondering why it is that LD'ing tends to get mistakenly grouped with quackery that may as well be voodoo or witchcraft. Are there any others on this forum who know when they're dreaming and have noticed this trend?

Thanks,
Brian Jackson

more info = lucidity.com

hyperlinked for you....
http://www.lucidity.com/

wow....is it something you've trained yourself to do? Or have you always had an ability which you've been able to hone with practice?

i don't see why one would attach a spiritual significance to it - but it sounds a pretty neat thing to be able to do....:)

Many people report having experienced a lucid dream during their lives, often in childhood. Although lucid dreaming is a conditioned skill[12], achieving lucid dreams on a regular basis can be difficult and is uncommon, even with training. Despite this difficulty, techniques have been developed to achieve a lucid dreaming state intentionally.

There are some factors which can affect the ability to experience lucid dreams:

Some naturals have lucid dreams more often and more easily than others.
Meditation, and involvement in consciousness focusing activities can strengthen the ability to experience lucid dreams.[13]
Children seem to have lucid dreams more easily than adults do. (The ability to sleep appears to decrease when people get older.[14])
Induction techniques can help much in becoming lucid.
The most important aspect in lucid dreaming is to recognize that one is dreaming. Any time that a person recognizes a dream sign, or anything that is out of the ordinary, they should perform a reality test.

Reality testing is a common method that people use to determine whether or not they are dreaming. It involves performing an action with results that are difficult to re-create in a dream. By practicing these techniques during waking life, one will eventually dream of performing a reality check—which will usually fail—helping the dreamer realize that they are dreaming. Common reality tests include:

Read some text, look away, and read it again, or to look at your watch and remember the time, then look away and look back. Observers have found that, in a dream, the text or time will often have changed.[15]
Flipping a light switch or looking into a mirror. Light switches rarely work properly in dreams, and reflections from a mirror often appear to be blurred, distorted or incorrect.[16]
Another form of reality testing involves identifying one's dream signs, clues that one is dreaming. Dream signs are often categorized as follows:

Action — The dreamer, another dream character, or a thing does something unusual or impossible in waking life, such as photos in a magazine or newspaper becoming 3-dimensional with full movement.
Context — The place or situation in the dream is strange.
Form — The dreamer, another character, or a thing changes shape, or is oddly formed or transforms; this may include the presence of unusual clothing or hair, or a third person view of the dreamer.
Awareness — A peculiar thought, a strong emotion, an unusual sensation, or altered perceptions. In some cases when moving one's head from side to side, one may notice a strange stuttering or 'strobing' of the image.
Cohesion — Sometimes the dreamer may seem to "teleport" to a completely different location in a dream, with no transition whatsoever.
Though occurrences like these may seem out of place in waking life, they may seem perfectly normal to a dreaming mind and learning to pick up on these dream signs will help in recognizing that one is dreaming.

Mnemonic induction of lucid dreams (MILD)
The mnemonic induction of lucid dreams is a common technique used to induce a lucid dream at will by setting an intention, while falling asleep, to remember to recognize that one is dreaming, or to remember to look for dream signs. Because it is easy to master (almost everyone sets intentions frequently), it is ideal for those who have never practiced lucid dreaming induction techniques before.

The MILD technique was developed by Stephen LaBerge, and is described fully in his book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming.


[edit] Wake-back-to-bed (WBTB)
The wake-back-to-bed technique is often the easiest way to induce a lucid dream. The method involves going to sleep tired and waking up five hours later. Then, focusing all thoughts on lucid dreaming, staying awake for an hour and going back to sleep. The odds of having a lucid dream are then much higher. This is because the REM cycles get longer as the night goes on, and this technique takes advantage of the best REM cycle of the night. Because this REM cycle is longer and deeper, gaining lucidity during this time may result in a more vivid and lengthy lucid dream.[17] This may also offer an explanation as to why many people claim to have more memorable dreams in the early morning hours before they wake up for the day. However, the explanation that people may simply recall a dream more easily if they directly wake up from it has also been suggested.


[edit] Wake-initiated lucid dream (WILD)
The wake-initiated lucid dream "occurs when the sleeper enters REM sleep with unbroken self-awareness directly from the waking state".[18] The key to this technique is recognizing the hypnagogic stage, which is within the border of being awake and being asleep. If a person is successful in staying aware while this stage occurs, they will eventually enter the dream state while being fully aware that it is a dream. Because one does not have to recognize a cue in order to induce a lucid dream using this technique, it tends to be more reliable than other techniques. There are key times at which this technique is best used; while success at night after being awake for a long time is very difficult, it is relatively easy after being awake for 15 or so minutes and in the afternoon during a nap. Users of this technique often count, envision themselves climbing or descending stairs, chanting to themselves, controlling their breathing, concentrating on relaxing their body from their toes to their head, allowing images to flow through their "mind's eye" and envisioning themselves jumping into the image, or any various form of concentration to keep their mind awake, while still being calm enough to let their body sleep. During the actual transition into the dreamstate, one is likely to experience sleep paralysis, including rapid vibrations.[19]Also there is frequently a sensation of falling rapidly or dropping through the bed as one enters the dreamstate or the sensation of entering a dark black room from which one can induce any dream scenario of one's choosing, simply by concentrating on it. The key to being sucessful is not to panic, especially during the transition which can be quite sudden.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dreaming

cool....i'll give it a go tonight :D
 
I've tried many times to "stay awake" while "falling asleep" but if I've ever done it, I don't remember doing so. I have no idea what it feels like to actually transition "into" sleep. I just know it happens eventually if I wait around in the dark long enough. :D

Only lucid dream I ever had gave me ZERO control. Once I figured it out, the whole dream world seemed to conspire against me and I transitioned from "scene to scene" in some odd way of trying to make me forget I was dreaming. It was bizarre.
 
I'm just wondering why it is that LD'ing tends to get mistakenly grouped with quackery that may as well be voodoo or witchcraft. Are there any others on this forum who know when they're dreaming and have noticed this trend?

The first time I became aware of the fact that I was dreaming was at about 5 years old. Even then, I simply thought "hey I'm dreaming".

The trend you mention is something that abounds in any subject involving unusual, altered mental states, such as LD'ing, meditation, sleep paralysis, etc. It's simply what happens when people who have limited critical faculties attempt to explain something they don't understand.
 
I think he means the other way around, as in scientists labelling it as such. And really, there are similar reasons. Scientists are human like anyone else. They may dismiss a phenomenon entirely if all they hear about it is people claiming "I was abducted by aliens". They wouldn't even think there's an actual phenomenon to be examined if that's all they hear of it.

Likewise, I've heard a lot of really silly stuff about being aware you are in your own dream, like being "connected to the universe" or being able to psychoanalyze myself (as though I'd trust my dreamy critical faculties to something that important).
 
Lucid dreaming is awesome. Unfortunately, I only experience this rarely. I too am dismayed by the aura of woo that has glommed on to the topic, as it makes finding further information and techniques very difficult.
 
As a kid I developed a fear of dreaming b/c it meant I lost control. I developed chronic insomnia because the idea of going into a world where anything could happen, but I'd think it was real, was terrifying.

I read on a cereal box one morning about dreams, and sometime soon after had a dream where I was in the school library with 2 friends and one complained it was only a dream, and I realized that I was dreaming.

After that, I tried to recognize when I was dreaming -- I'd think about it every night as I lay in bed, remembering what dreams felt like, and reminding myself to try to catch it happening -- and after a while I started being able to do it sometimes. (Flying became my first cue to think "Hey, I'm dreaming".)

At first, it happened rarely, but eventually I got to where I could pretty consistently recognize the feeling and distinguish dream states.

(Brian, PM me if you want to hear the most interesting stories about how this all developed.)

I kept a nightly dream journal for 10 years. Now (and for the past 20+ years) I almost always know that I'm dreaming. In fact, it bothers me when I wake up from a dream and I didn't know.

I used to stop or change bad dreams, but gave that up many years ago, because now I'm not afraid of what will happen, even if it's bad.

As a teenager, I'd try to wake up from bad dreams, and I could do it, but the best way I can describe it is like trying to swim to the surface from the bottom of a pool of Jello.

A couple of times I even had the apparent experience of being aware of transitioning between being awake, through falling asleep, and then to dreaming, but I don't believe this is what was actually happening. I think it was just going from being awake to some sort of hypnogogic state. (It felt like falling forward continually without getting anywhere, btw, accompanied by an enveloping whooshing sound.)

But I didn't talk about it with people -- my peers already thought I was weird enough -- and I never associated it with anything religious. It was just dreaming.

Sidenote: I did mention it to my first shrink, in my late 20s. He simply dismissed it, calling it "impossible". I really liked the guy, and he literally saved my life, but that was the moment when I had a big reality check and realized, ok, he's got his biases too, which actually helped the process of bringing me down to earth.
 
It seems I'm completely alone in having a lucid dream where I LOST all control...
 
It seems I'm completely alone in having a lucid dream where I LOST all control...

Not entirely.

One of the scariest dreams I ever had was one from the period when I was just being able to consistently understand that I was dreaming.

I had a lot of nightmares back then -- early teenage years... pretty typical, I think. Anyway, in this one, a small wiry fellow was trailing me. I recognized it as a dream, so walked through the wall of a building to elude him. He came through behind me.

He pulled a gun on me. I tried to make the gun disappear, and it wouldn't. He smiled. It was chilling in the irrational way that dream-things can be. He looked at me and said, "I know it's a dream, too".

That scared the living daylights out of me, because it meant that dream-beings could have just as much control as I did!

I did the Jello-swim. Had to wake up, had to get out of there. Woke up panting.

Very scary.
 
wow....is it something you've trained yourself to do? Or have you always had an ability which you've been able to hone with practice?

In my case it was practice. When I learned of Stanford University's Lucidity Institute I was intrigued... obsessed really. Shortly thereafter I had my first LD. I was lying in bed with my wife and glanced at my hand. I noticed I had more than 5 fingers and showed her, saying to her that "I've done it, this is a dream." To prove it I levitated over the bed and kissed her while suspended (minus the leather straps:D I then proceeded to test the solidity of my "dream body" and passed one hand entirely through the other... pulling it out left no hole. My dream wife seemed pretty impressed. I couldn't get over how vivid everything looked, until I stood in front of the full-length mirror just outside of our bedroom. My reflection was wirey, semi-translucent and reminiscent of the ETs from Close Encounters. Freaky to say the least.

Since then I began reporting my dreams to Lucidy Institute and testing new products of theirs. They had one called a... crap, I forget... but it was a sound recorder box-thingy that only played back sound when it received a signal during REM from the NovaDreamer. Though nice in theory the unit sucked and I sent it back. That's what prompted me to design LISA, a high-res system that used special headphones of my own design (BedPhones.)

I'd previously noticed that TV & radio news broadcast stories frequently became incorporated into my non-lucid dreams... so it seemed obvious that sound could play a crucial role in delivering the cues that I might be dreaming. Simply stating "this is a dream" didn't work as well as asking "what's the square root of 25." Odd as it seems the math problems were more recognizable.

An earlier poster quoted the "WILD" technique (Wake Induced Lucid Dream). I have better luck with this as it's just a matter of staying conscious. It's also the most frightening because you'll experience Sleep Paralysis. During the fall-asleep phase the bed will seem to vibrate and there will be* an evil presece in the room. It's my belief that this accounts for people's belief in alien abduction... it feels like that to the uninformed, complete with special FX.

Back to the original queston, it's something anybody can do with practice. Another poster mentioned that he's done LDing since childhood. I wish I could say that. I can also see where woo-woo artists might claim it as an altered state of conciousness, which it is, but for entirely different reasons. There is a "fun factor" involved, but it has nothing to do with spirituality. It's simply the perception of something we do every night.
 
Hmm I'm going to start practicing this LD stuff right away, sounds like a lot of fun.

Although... am I the only one here who would spend most of his LD time materializing, and then having sex with, gorgeous women?
 
Hmm I'm going to start practicing this LD stuff right away, sounds like a lot of fun.

Although... am I the only one here who would spend most of his LD time materializing, and then having sex with, gorgeous women?

Naaa... LD sex is part of the fun!:D No condoms or STDs involved!
 
I've had LD's a few times in my life. They're great. They don't happen often enough, though.
 
Richard Feynman writes about lucid dreaming in either 'Surely you're joking...' or 'What do you care...' (can't remember which, its a while since I read them). He describes techniques he used to get into a lucid dream. So not all LDers are woos!
 
Although... am I the only one here who would spend most of his LD time materializing, and then having sex with, gorgeous women?

Heh. That's the first thing I did when I finally realised I was dreaming once. (I've toyed with lucid dreaming, but never enough to do it reliably, so it's rare).
However, I find that I cannot just "materialize" things in my lucid dreams. When my attempt to materialize a naked women failed, I gave up and walked off. Around the next corner was a ticket booth contiaining one naked woman with come to bed eyes. :D

I am also amazed at the incredible clarity within lucid dreams. I remember walking through my local high street when I realised I was dreaming, so I flew up and looked over the roofs of the shops. Even though I have never seen these roofs in real life, I could see every rusty gutter, and every rivet on the dream roofs! I guess your dream eyes aren't hindered by bad eyesight either, so in some ways it's even more vivid that real life.

One good thing about the woo aspect of lucid dreaming is that it led me to this site! I was reading a lucid dreaming newsgroup, and marveling over the utter drivel that was being posted, and following threads to cross posted woo groups. It was in one of these groups that I first read about the million dollar challenge (why you shouldn't take it because it was rigged lol!)
 
I've had LD's a few times in my life. They're great. They don't happen often enough, though.

That's what got me interested in LD Induction Devices... a way to tell myself I was dreaming. Reality Checks are good if you remember to do them (my right hand is a dead give-away; either to many fingers or shaped funny). Audio seemed more a direct path but doesn't always work. Promising though.
 
Hi All.

For the past few years, I've been practicing Lucid Dreaming (knowing you're dreaming during the dream) and have gotten fairly good at having them semi-regularly. I do this purely for fun, as the sheer entertainment value of playing God in my dreams is priceless... (especially the flying or sexy ones!)
Mate, talk about keeping us waiting - you mentioned this very subject when you joined and I've been looking for this thread ever since. I'm with you [and so is my wife!!:D ] on the sexy dreams, but the ones I really just get pumped on I am Steven Segal crossed with the Incredible Hulk, and I do DAMAGE!
:dl:
Unlike Piggy, I don't get to enjoy them as constantly as I'd like. It's a difficult concept, but once I'd learnt about it in my 20s, I was hooked on the concept.

Cheers, welcome aboard!

Don't keep us waiting so long for the next thread.
 
I am also amazed at the incredible clarity within lucid dreams... I was reading a lucid dreaming newsgroup, and marveling over the utter drivel that was being posted...

Exactly, and why I'm posting here instead of the "Woo" groups. Regarding your clarity, I think our dreams exist within our "mental model" of the world as we know it. If it were truly random imagery then things like Gravity or passing through solids wouldn't seem out of place. I think we have a tremendous ability to fill in the blanks from other perspectives. My dreams still carry over the laws of physics. It's when they're broken I question the state and discover I'm dreaming.

Regarding your coments of other forums, that's precisely why I posted here.
 
If I remember correctly. Dr. Lebarge's book on Lucid Dreaming mentioned something about him being on a sabbatical to search for the Holy Grail (literally, not the "Holy Grail" of some rational subject), so that could explain the woo connections. I very well could be remembering incorrect, though; I read that book something like 15 years ago, that line just amused me and stuck.

As for lucid dreams themselves, I've had a few, but don't have nearly as many as I'd like. I might have to try a NovaDreamer...
 

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