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London Terrorist Charged

Are the charges "murder" and "attempted murder", which happen to be terrorism-related; "terrorism-related murder" and "attempted murder"; or "terrorism-related murder" and "terrorism-related attempted murder"?
 
sphenisc said:
Are the charges "murder" and "attempted murder", which happen to be terrorism-related; "terrorism-related murder" and "attempted murder"; or "terrorism-related murder" and "terrorism-related attempted murder"?
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AFAIK murder is murder, there's no terrorism component additional to the motive, which is reflected in sentencing.
 
baron said:
AFAIK murder is murder, there's no terrorism component additional to the motive, which is reflected in sentencing.
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The Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 makes provision for longer sentences if the offence is deemed to be terrorism related. The Criminal Justice Act also includes special provisions for certain categories, such as an offence related to the furtherance of a political or religious agenda.
 
TX50 said:
The Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 makes provision for longer sentences if the offence is deemed to be terrorism related. The Criminal Justice Act also includes special provisions for certain categories, such as an offence related to the furtherance of a political or religious agenda.
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I know, as I said, it will be considered within the motive and reflected in sentencing. I was making the point that the charge is only ever murder, as the charge of murder contains no categories.
 
Thanks. So who does the "deeming if it's terror-related" bit. Is that part of the jury's role or the judge's?
 
Novel "it was my invisible mate Dave" defence fails to convince jury....

BBC News: Man guilty of Finsbury Park mosque murder

"A man who drove a van into a crowd of Muslims near a London mosque has been found guilty of murder.

Darren Osborne, 48, ploughed into people in Finsbury Park in June 2017, killing Makram Ali, 51, and injuring nine others.

Osborne, from Cardiff, was also found guilty of attempted murder and is due to be sentenced on Friday.

The jury took an hour to return the verdict at Woolwich Crown Court after an eight day trial."
 
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Information Analyst said:
Novel "it was my invisible mate Dave" defence fails to convince jury....
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Your link didn't mention this, and I got curious about the nature of this Dave fellow. This earlier BBC article mentions it:
Darren Osborne, 48, has denied he was behind the wheel during the attack on 19 June 2017, telling Woolwich Crown Court a "guy called Dave" was driving.

He said they originally hired the van to kill the Labour leader on a march he was expected to attend.

Mr Osborne also said that it "would have been even better" if London Mayor Sadiq Khan had been present.
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Charming fellow. :rolleyes:

I'm at a loss how he thought that "Dave" defence would convince anybody, what with London chock full of CCTV and with multiple witnesses who saw him leave the van.
 
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ddt said:
I'm at a loss how he thought that "Dave" defence would convince anybody, what with London chock full of CCTV and with multiple witnesses who saw him leave the van.
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BBC News: Finsbury Park mosque attack suspect's defence 'conjured up'

"Earlier, Mr Rees challenged the defendant to explain why Dave had not been seen on CCTV getting out of the van after the collision, in which nine people were also injured.

Mr Osborne said: "He's like Dynamo, an illusion. An illusionist. He can make himself vanish perhaps. I don't know."

And he insisted that Dave had not been made up."

An ironic claim, considering that Dynamo is of Pakistani descent.
 
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Information Analyst said:
BBC News: Finsbury Park mosque attack suspect's defence 'conjured up'

"Earlier, Mr Rees challenged the defendant to explain why Dave had not been seen on CCTV getting out of the van after the collision, in which nine people were also injured.

Mr Osborne said: "He's like Dynamo, an illusion. An illusionist. He can make himself vanish perhaps. I don't know."

And he insisted that Dave had not been made up."

An ironic claim, considering that Dynamo is of Pakistani descent.
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LOL on your last line.

I'm still at a loss how he or his lawyer thought that would convince the jury. Has there been a forensic psychiatric evaluation as part of the trial?
 
Information Analyst said:
I suspect that he went very much off-script off his own bat towards the end.
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I can't see any attorney making a defense that stupid and making himself look like a incompetent.

With all the comments he made and his bragging about the attack,I suspect Osborne, for some twisted reason, wanted to be convicted.
 
Information Analyst said:
I suspect that he went very much off-script off his own bat towards the end.
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I agree. When you first wrote about his "invisible mate Dave", I thought maybe he heard voices from an invisible friend Dave. That would have been more plausible than one who was physically present.
 
dudalb said:
I can't see any attorney making a defense that stupid and making himself look like a incompetent.
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In fairness, his barrister didn't say it, it was Osborne himself when he was challenged by the prosecution barrister as to why "Dave" wasn't caught on CCTV.

With all the comments he made and his bragging about the attack,I suspect Osborne, for some twisted reason, wanted to be convicted.
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I almost said last night that one thing he has in common with other captured-alive terrorists is that the convictions seem to dissipate when their actually put on trial. I'm not saying I'd respect them, but I'd certainly feel a modicum of contempt less it they stood up admitted what they did and why.
 
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