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"Listening to Young Atheists: Lessons for a Stronger Christianity"

Humes fork

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From The Atlantic:

When a Christian foundation interviewed college nonbelievers about how and why they left religion, surprising themes emerged.

...

When our participants were asked to cite key influences in their conversion to atheism--people, books, seminars, etc. -- we expected to hear frequent references to the names of the "New Atheists." We did not. Not once. Instead, we heard vague references to videos they had watched on YouTube or website forums.

...

Perhaps the most surprising aspect of this whole study was the lasting impression many of these discussions made upon us.

That these students were, above all else, idealists who longed for authenticity, and having failed to find it in their churches, they settled for a non-belief that, while less grand in its promises, felt more genuine and attainable. I again quote Michael: "Christianity is something that if you really believed it, it would change your life and you would want to change [the lives] of others. I haven't seen too much of that."

I have to commend these Christians. Instead of talking about the evils of atheism (typically how atheists are either all depressed, or disbelieve just because they want to sin and be wild party animals - don't those two descriptions contradict each other?), they actually ask atheists from a Christian background why they left Christianity. A problem is though that they assume that Christianity is the divine truth and that the problem is to be found within Christian organizations rather than the religion itself.
 
Very interesting, indeed, though I have only read your excerpt. It mirrors a strong, strong feeling I had before I fully abandoned my belief: If they really believed this, why aren't they dedicating every moment to it? Surely nothing else could be as important?
 
Humes fork said:
I have to commend these Christians. Instead of talking about the evils of atheism (typically how atheists are either all depressed, or disbelieve just because they want to sin and be wild party animals - don't those two descriptions contradict each other?), they actually ask atheists from a Christian background why they left Christianity.
Seems a few atheists on this forum could learn a lesson from this.

Also, the parantehtical is only a contradiction if you assume that all atheists must have the same reasons for leaving. If instead you assume that there atheism includes a diverse group of people, each with their own reasons to not believe, it's no longer a contradiction. The idea that Group 1 left religion for Reason A in no way contradicts the idea that Group 2 left religion for Reason B. And that's without getting into the fact that being depressed and being a wild party type aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.
 
I wonder which forums were influential? How influential was this one? I doubt there are too many forums that are bigger where you are allowed to say what you want about religion in their religion sub forum.

Edit. Just done a google search using the terms
religion forum.
Jref forum came 2nd.
 
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I'm reading the article now, and it is very intriguing, especially the author's comment that he feels atheism to be "historically naive and potentially dangerous." One of his points stuck out, though:

Larry Taunton said:
"Most of our participants had not chosen their worldview from ideologically neutral positions at all, but in reaction to Christianity. Not Islam. Not Buddhism. Christianity."

Considering the fact that the author's non-profit, Fixed Point Foundation is a U.S. group, and students from U.S. universities responded, why on earth did the author find it the least bit noteworthy that the participants he met with were not reacting to Islam or Buddhism? Does he know how many Muslims and Buddhists live in the U.S.? Does he know how many Christians live in the U.S.?
 
A couple of months ago, NPR's Morning Edition did a week-long series on this general topic they called (as I recall...) "Loosing Our Religion".
One of the things that struck me in the interviews and such they aired was that these youngsters were not engaging in an intellectual examination of the evidence.... Rather their decision to depart from their parent's faith was essentially emotional... That it didn't feel relevant to them, or "real", or believable.
That they saw this is perhaps encouraging, but I think a majority of these folks will just end up grabbing onto some other belief system to fill the perceived need for spirituality or transcendence.
My kids are involved in the rather diverse neo-pagan community, and so far as we can tell, it's totally populated by dropouts from "conventional" religions.
 
Reading the article the author seems to make intentional non warranted causation/correlation. From the example of "phil" and "meredith" , he seems to always try to dig after emotional stuff and seems he wants to correlate them to be the reason to atheism switch. From the example given it is not warranted IMHO to establish a causation that easily. The last one I give him maybe, but the others ? It sounds to me it is the same premise (Atheist are emotional and angry at god) and from that premise he built his "evidence gathering" upon and reached the conclusion he , emotionally, wanted.
 
"That these students were, above all else, idealists who longed for authenticity, and having failed to find it in their churches, they settled for a non-belief that, while less grand in its promises, felt more genuine and attainable."

This gives me the impression that the author might be presenting atheists as having settled for an inferior and less satisfying position for the sake of comfort. I find the provincial and naïve universe depicted by Christianity (and most other religions) to be a pale substitute for the wonders of the universe as it actually is. Even what little we know of the universe has, for me, far exceeded the promise of Christianity.
 
"That these students were, above all else, idealists who longed for authenticity, and having failed to find it in their churches, they settled for a non-belief that, while less grand in its promises, felt more genuine and attainable."

This gives me the impression that the author might be presenting atheists as having settled for an inferior and less satisfying position for the sake of comfort. I find the provincial and naïve universe depicted by Christianity (and most other religions) to be a pale substitute for the wonders of the universe as it actually is. Even what little we know of the universe has, for me, far exceeded the promise of Christianity.


Hear hear! Well put.
 
"That these students were, above all else, idealists who longed for authenticity, and having failed to find it in their churches, they settled for a non-belief that, while less grand in its promises, felt more genuine and attainable."

This gives me the impression that the author might be presenting atheists as having settled for an inferior and less satisfying position for the sake of comfort. I find the provincial and naïve universe depicted by Christianity (and most other religions) to be a pale substitute for the wonders of the universe as it actually is. Even what little we know of the universe has, for me, far exceeded the promise of Christianity.

Why can't you accept both the promise of Christianity and the universe as we discover it? I don't have any problem accepting both at the same time.
 
Why can't you accept both the promise of Christianity and the universe as we discover it? ....

Why SHOULD you accept both the promise of christianity and the universe as we find it? Why would you?

If there were equal evidence, then of course I would accept both. But there isn't any evidence at all for one position, and there is overwhelming evidence for the other. That is the problem that religious folk have never ever come to terms with...........the old "prove it" problem.
 
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Why can't you accept both the promise of Christianity and the universe as we discover it?

For the same reason I can't accept the promise of Islam, or Hinduism, or Mormonism. I can't accept a claim as true without any supporting evidence.
 
Why can't you accept both the promise of Christianity and the universe as we discover it? I don't have any problem accepting both at the same time.

That's fine, but I assume from that you are not one of the large group of xtians who do not believe in evolution and/or big bang theory and/or the actual father and mother of all of us (who never met as they were a good time apart - though both were in Africa and the woman far earlier) who were neither the first man or woman.
 
Why can't you accept both the promise of Christianity and the universe as we discover it? I don't have any problem accepting both at the same time.

So you accept the fact then that archeology has demonstrated the exodus story to be mythology?
 
Also, the parantehtical is only a contradiction if you assume that all atheists must have the same reasons for leaving. If instead you assume that there atheism includes a diverse group of people, each with their own reasons to not believe, it's no longer a contradiction. The idea that Group 1 left religion for Reason A in no way contradicts the idea that Group 2 left religion for Reason B. And that's without getting into the fact that being depressed and being a wild party type aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

I suppose you are right, but religious people often paint atheists and atheism in broad brushes.

Then there is also the variety that is convinced that when atheists face calamity they will call to God.
 
Considering the fact that the author's non-profit, Fixed Point Foundation is a U.S. group, and students from U.S. universities responded, why on earth did the author find it the least bit noteworthy that the participants he met with were not reacting to Islam or Buddhism?

I find it absolutely fantastic that this is a serious question. Atheists have a habit of making sweeping statements about religion--a quick glance through this forum is sufficient to demonstrate this. I invite anyone reading this post to glance through this forum and see how many times an individual belief system is called out. And I don't mean to pick on folks here--it's something I've seen fairly frequently. On another forum I saw a debate about whether theists were delusional or not--not Christians, not "theists I've known", not "a subset of theists", but THEISTS AS SUCH, regardless of their beliefs (a significant bit of irrationality, considering there ARE theists who don't claim to have seen or experienced anything supernatural).

The reason the author thought it worth pointing out that atheists were reacting against Christianity is that they took the atheists seriously. Atheists discuss religion as such, not any one religion--yet, according to the author's research, a remarkable number are only ever exposed to a single type of theism. That's a rather important fact.

Humes fork said:
I suppose you are right, but religious people often paint atheists and atheism in broad brushes.
The "Tu Quoque" fallacy remains a fallacy even when you agree with the side originally offended.
 
YAY!
It's starting; finally!

Sorry; this is something I've been predicting for a while, and is a big part of my tangent regarding the evolution of religion in Western society.

I'll try not to soak too much space with this, but here's what I'm referring to:

When our participants were asked to cite key influences in their conversion to atheism--people, books, seminars, etc. -- we expected to hear frequent references to the names of the "New Atheists." We did not.

That these students were, above all else, idealists who longed for authenticity, and having failed to find it in their churches, they settled for a non-belief that, while less grand in its promises, felt more genuine and attainable. I again quote Michael: "Christianity is something that if you really believed it, it would change your life and you would want to change [the lives] of others. I haven't seen too much of that."

Here's my theory as to why (and I'm really truncating a much longer discourse into the constituents that I've examined over the past decade that aided in forming this theory, so if anyone wants to dig deeper; I can create a separate thread on that tangent that explains those points...allot of it deals with base neurology):

Essentially, human spirituality runs mostly on limbic response satisfaction.
Almost everything related to adherence rests upon this satisfaction.
If the emotional relationship is not imbued with value to the capacity level of earning reverence (holding a special value for the relationship with the constructs of their religion), then the kick-off point begins for the beginning of the adherent's path to slipping out of their given religion; at least traditionally.

The adherent will most commonly attempt to reaffirm their belief system to begin with; trying to find an emotional spark that bonds the construct to imbued value.
As time goes on, if this doesn't happen, they will continue to slip away.
At some point, they may consider that the issue is localized; that their issue is with their specific congregation (Church, Temple, Center, etc...), and attempt to go to a different congregation.
If the new congregation (and environment) fails to engage a sustained emotional imbuement (even if it starts with a "honeymoon" phase related to excitement from the unknown of change), then they may try a congregational change again a few times.
If it persists, they may drop out entirely, or if they are willing to think that there's still a resolution somewhere (which is a cognitive error as it's really somehow), then they will often flip sects within their religion (occasionally, due to personality differences, they may flip religions and skip sect-hopping).
Sect-hopping falls into the same run as the congregational hopping, and if that fails to engage an emotional connection, then the adherent may drop out entirely or flip religions, or start mix/matching.

But basically; what's lacking for the individual is the emotional connection with the belief construct. It's not a cognitive system.
The cognitive aspects are reactive, employing our analytical system "worry" for repeatedly attempting to find a solution.

Depending on a wide range of variables of how they are treated during this period, as well as their personality type, the individual (if they decide that they are atheist [a term that I more relate to as, "having no emotional connection to the construct of their given religion"], may potentially become bitter, disillusioned, liberated, or joyful (to name a few differences).

Because there is a growing openness in society of accepting people being non-religious yet still emotionally spiritual (however they define that in their mind), some will just continue on with a mix/match personal brand of spiritual construct which can be a wide range of possibilities as it's being tailored to their satisfaction as best as they can fit together.


My theory would offer to this Christian movement's interest, the following:
That if they are concerned with this, then they need to not look at cognitive solutions, but instead frequency of subjective limbic imbuement potentials.

Meaning; the entire reason the individual is moving away is most probably going to be related to the format of the religion's spiritual practice (what I call) 'order of conduction' and more specifically (again, what I call) 'proanisotropics' (which refers to the specific spiritual practices [prayer, meditation, worship service, et. al. formats and types).

The engagement issue is that the individual is not being delivered interactions that satisfy their limbic imbuement subjectively to their form, and that the interactions themselves are not in line with the frequency rate the individual needs to maintain the limbic imbuement satisfaction.


A tangible example of what I'm talking about here is the relatively new phenomenon of Christians in our society mixing Buddhist meditation practices into their Christian dogmatic constructs.
This interesting demographic is borrowing proanisotropics, but not instaters (the dogmatic constructs of a religion), so to encourage limbic satisfaction of their Christian dogmatic constructs where their traditional Christian proanisotropics and orders of conductions are failing on their own to connect with a limbic satisfaction.


This is actually where I spend the majority of my time in studying spirituality in society; how it works in our body, why it works, and how it faults and why.

Essentially; it fails because a cookie-cutter system that runs the way traditional Christianity functions does not work very well for a growing number of people.

That is to say:
An order of conduction of one to three times a week congregational interactions involving, mostly, cognitive engagement (rather than limbic) through a wide variety of "lessons" and "preaching" is not personal or emotional for every individual.
This format's proanisotropics are somewhat sterile; involving mass singing, sermons, non-personal prayer, a lack of any form of meditation (respite of the mind and stress specifically), and spends most of its time focusing on reaffirmation and conviction affirmation.

Meanwhile, by contrast in the above example demographic mixing Christianity with Buddhism; all of what Christianity lacks in form, Buddhism offers in surplus.
The individual received personalized training for regulating their limbic system and can easily find an emotional connection in doing so.


In a way, what we are looking at is very similar to what Bruce Lee was addressing when he was addressing how traditional forms of martial arts training were inept at addressing maximizing efficient economy of body movement to the individual.
His assertion was that a mass format cannot gain the maximum leverage for the individual through macrolevel prescriptions and interactions, and that a specific attention to the individual was needed to analyze the best system for each individual that works with their strengths and weaknesses.

Now, he was discussing physical body efficiency and not spiritual limbic efficiency, but the very basic concept of macrolevel spiritual interfaces compared against subjective microlevel spiritual interfaces is of the same fashion of consideration.


We tailor everything else to suit our needs, yet religion still stands as a construct that most often attempts to not tailor to individuals, but instead request individuals to tailor to it, and assume (like Uncle Sam) that one size fits all.

So...that would be my advice to these folks; don't look for a cognitive subject to battle (lines of reason).
Look at experiential interactions and see what kind of feelings the people are having when engaged in their spiritual activities, and inquire what they are looking for (they won't be able to answer accurately, but the answers tell you useful information anyway; via psychology).

This is why the cognitive content they are getting from these folks are "vague" and varied; because it's not a cognitive issue.
It's like people eating food and knowing something just doesn't taste right, but not sure what, and then trying a bunch of different combinations looking for what that taste is without knowing the name for it.

Except here; rather than something easily tangible like taste; we're working with a very transitive and transient construct of reverential emotion.
 
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From The Atlantic:



I have to commend these Christians. Instead of talking about the evils of atheism (typically how atheists are either all depressed, or disbelieve just because they want to sin and be wild party animals - don't those two descriptions contradict each other?), they actually ask atheists from a Christian background why they left Christianity. A problem is though that they assume that Christianity is the divine truth and that the problem is to be found within Christian organizations rather than the religion itself.
What really strikes me about this article is that there is no concern for what is actually true. If you believe this, perhaps that will happen. How about some respect for reality?
 
The reason the author thought it worth pointing out that atheists were reacting against Christianity is that they took the atheists seriously. Atheists discuss religion as such, not any one religion--yet, according to the author's research, a remarkable number are only ever exposed to a single type of theism. That's a rather important fact.

Which is because, in America, there is one religion that outnumbers all the others combined. Judaism is number two, at 1.7% of the country. Buddhism at 0.7%. Islam at 0.6%. Buddhism isn't strictly a theism. The other three aren't all that different. Same god, many of the same prophets and preachers.

How many former Taoists are there in this country? Hindus? Shintoists?
 
I don't recall the demographic report numbers off hand, but Hinduism is on the rise a bit due to immigration; but it's still a low number.
 

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