Lies, Damned Lies, and Politicians

[IsThisTheLife]

Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?

These were split from the Mueller Report thread. They were just off topic enough to be moved out of there to here.

Posted By: kmortis

 

[thaiboxerken]

Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?

Most politicians do not lie to the scale of Trump. over 10,000 in his two years of office is unprecedented!

 

[Belz...]

Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?

That you even need to ask this is pretty ridiculous. All humans lie. But there's a difference between people who lie to protect others or their feelings, those who lie in order to gain something, and those who lie reflexively until they can't even tell the difference between reality and their delusions anymore. Trump's in the latter category.

With politicians in general, you can trust them to lie in a predictable way. Not necessarily morally acceptable, but at least par for the course. But if Trump told me that the sky is blue, I'd have to go out and check.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?

as a rule of thumb, they lie 2 to 4 orders of magnitude less.
I think it is clear that at Trump's level of dishonesty, it is not just a quantitative, but also a qualitative difference.

 

[acbytesla]

Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?

Every human being lies on occasion. But let's be honest, (sorry, couldn't help myself) Trump lies more than all the other politicians combined. It's non-stop with Trump. I've NEVER EVER seen someone like Trump.

Trump is unique. He doesn't care one bit if what he says his true. If it makes sense to Trump, he will say it. Sometimes he must know what he is saying is false and other times he probably doesn't know one way or another. But the point is it doesn't matter to Trump. He'll accuse others of lying when in fact they're not. They are only contradicting some falsehood that he has spouted.

Trump doesn't like it when its pointed out that he's wrong. But instead of correcting his mistake he'll lie about those trying to set the record straight.

The question for you and the rest of America. Do you want a government that mostly is trying to tell the truth but occasionally doesn't? Or do you want one that is entirely based on disinformation as in George Orwell's doublespeak?

Does truth matter to you?
Do facts count?
Does integrity matter?
Are laws for the other guys?

I've never been more afraid of America's future. We have a President that is actively trying to destroy all the principles this country is based on and 30 percent of the country are waving flags and saying "keep it up Trump". Trump is already hinting about staying in office even if he loses. If he loses, he will not gracefully accept his loss.

There's a bad moon arising I'm afraid.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I think it is clear that at Trump's level of dishonesty, it is not just a quantitative, but also a qualitative difference.

Related, but slightly different, is zero consistency in his proclamations.

Saying he was "100%" willing to talk to Mueller - until he wasn't.

Saying he would release his taxes if nominated - until he changed his mind.

Saying he would not object to Mueller testifying - until he objected.

And on and on. Unsettling enough in these matters. I think the situation will become grave in the event of a real crisis where his words and promises have zero weight with anyone.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Related, but slightly different, is zero consistency in his proclamations.

Saying he was "100%" willing to talk to Mueller - until he wasn't.

Saying he would release his taxes if nominated - until he changed his mind.

Saying he would not object to Mueller testifying - until he objected.

And on and on. Unsettling enough in these matters. I think the situation will become grave in the event of a real crisis where his words and promises have zero weight with anyone.

It's worse than that.

Trump likes to be on record for every possible answer to any possible question - so that his mouthpieces and fans can use the buffet of statements to shield him from everything.

Trump takes it as a failed opportunity not to lie and exaggerate.

 

[Horatius]

it is not just a quantitative, but also a qualitative difference.

Another part of that is that he lies about things that are just painfully obvious lies. "The biggest inauguration crowd in history", when we can all see the photos right in front of us. "I never said that", when we have him on video saying exactly that. It's literally, "Who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?"

It's one thing to lie about some obscure aspect of a proposed law or policy that most people don't really understand all that well to begin with, but lying about what's right in front of us is completely different.

 

[Aridas]

Every human being lies on occasion. But let's be honest, (sorry, couldn't help myself) Trump lies more than all the other politicians combined. It's non-stop with Trump. I've NEVER EVER seen someone like Trump.

Err... while this is obvious hyperbole, I think it may be worth repeating again that far too many of the GOP's politicians are taking cues from Trump and lying much more and much more brazenly than they used to be.

 

[acbytesla]

Err... while this is obvious hyperbole, I think it may be worth repeating again that far too many of the GOP's politicians are taking cues from Trump and lying much more and much more brazenly than they used to be.

I'm not sure it is. Trump seems to lie hourly. Whereas most people, even politicians rarely lie. I believe the vast majority use to actually care about integrity and don't tell lies flippantly. But I'm afraid you're right and that Trump has had a terrible effect on what people think is right and wrong.

As a former Christian I remember this verse.

There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

— Proverbs 6:16–19

 

[alfaniner]

I've never been more afraid of America's future. We have a President that is actively trying to destroy all the principles this country is based on and 30 percent of the country are waving flags and saying "keep it up Trump". Trump is already hinting about staying in office even if he loses. If he loses, he will not gracefully accept his loss.

There's a bad moon arising I'm afraid.

Same feeling here. I get increasingly concerned about what happens next year (!) if/when he's behind in the polls, and decides to do something desperate. Of course, there's a chance he could be out by then, either by his own decision ("Presidenting is hard!"), medical reasons, or political ousting. I think the last possibility is the least likely, this close to the next election.

I even get uneasy if he hasn't Tweeted anything by his regular time in the morning, like today. Someone must be making him actually work.

 

[smartcooky]

Can we just clear something up here? Do those that keep repeating that Trump "lies all the time" believe that most other politicians, not least HRC, don't lie? Or that they "don't lie as much"?

George Washington was the President who could not tell a lie.

Richard Nixon was the President who could not tell the truth.

Donald Trump is the President who cannot tell the difference!

 

[jimbob]

That you even need to ask this is pretty ridiculous. All humans lie. But there's a difference between people who lie to protect others or their feelings, those who lie in order to gain something, and those who lie reflexively until they can't even tell the difference between reality and their delusions anymore. Trump's in the latter category.

With politicians in general, you can trust them to lie in a predictable way. Not necessarily morally acceptable, but at least par for the course. But if Trump told me that the sky is blue, I'd have to go out and check.

Exactly. Even Goebbels knew what truth was.

I am not sure that Trump does. In fact, given how hurt he seems when people point out verifiable facts, I'd be more surprised if someone told me that Trump was able to separate truth and his lies

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

That you even need to ask this is pretty ridiculous. ...

I know right. I don't quite grasp this kind of false equivalence denial.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

That you even need to ask this is pretty ridiculous.

I wish a trumpkin would some day give me an honest answer as to why they "debate" this way. It's mind-boggling.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I wish a trumpkin would some day give me an honest answer as to why they "debate" this way. It's mind-boggling.

More mind-numbing, if you ask me.

 

[BadBoy]

I'm not sure it is. Trump seems to lie hourly. Whereas most people, even politicians rarely lie. I believe the vast majority use to actually care about integrity and don't tell lies flippantly. But I'm afraid you're right and that Trump has had a terrible effect on what people think is right and wrong.

As a former Christian I remember this verse.

There are six things that the LORD strongly dislikes, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

— Proverbs 6:16–19

you a Muslim now? or Hindu?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

A golden oldie.

(103 lies. How quaint.)

 

[acbytesla]

you a Muslim now? or Hindu?

No. I don't believe in ANYTHING supernatural. That would require evidence which no religion seems to be able to present.

But I do think some tenets of the judeo Christian ethics are worthwhile even though other religions do hold some of those values.

I find it strange somehow that Christians can and do continue to support Trump. I have never seen a human being ignore its teachings and rules so wilfully. I quoted that passage because Trump is emblematic of things their lord hates.

a lying tongue, CHECK
a heart that devises wicked plans, CHECK
feet that make haste to run to evil, CHECK
a false witness who breathes out lies, CHECK and DOUBLE CHECK
and one who sows discord among brothers TRIPLE CHECK

In my mind Trump is the least Christian person I've ever encountered. He doesn't love his brother. He doesn't treat others as he would want to be treated. His idea of the golden rule is to do to others and take their gold. He committed adultery on ALL of his wives.

And the truth is merely toilet paper he uses to wipe his ass. The man is sickening.

 

[Horatius]

I know right. I don't quite grasp this kind of false equivalence denial.

It's simple. Trump is the Conspiracy Theory President. He's been spouting and supporting conspiracy theories for years now, even to the extent of appearing on InfoWars. The Trump supporters we're arguing with now would have been the Truthers we were arguing with 10 years ago if they'd been around then. So it's no surprise they use the same sorts of talking points that were used then.

Seriously, what's the fundamental difference between someone asking us, "So, do you believe everything the government tells you?", and asking us, "So, do you believe everything Hillary Clinton tells you?"?

They're both fundamentally false dichotomies that ignore any semblance of nuance or context, and they're both standard go-to lines for Trumpers/Truthers.