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Kreef's 'arguement from conscience'.

kinkymagic

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I'm sorry if this particular arguement has been brought up before but I did a quick search and couldn't find it. Anyway, it's a standard Christian apologetic arguement, but like I said one that I haven't found on here, and my rebuttall skills aren't that hot when I'm sober let alone when I've had 5 beers; so I was wondering if any of you fine people would point out just how wrong the arguement is.

Unfortunatly I haven't got the requsite amount of posts :( so you'll have to type in "argument from conscience" in google and click the top link. Sorry.
 
I'm sorry if this particular arguement has been brought up before but I did a quick search and couldn't find it. Anyway, it's a standard Christian apologetic arguement, but like I said one that I haven't found on here, and my rebuttall skills aren't that hot when I'm sober let alone when I've had 5 beers; so I was wondering if any of you fine people would point out just how wrong the arguement is.

From the link tsg kindly posted:

The simple, intuitive point of the argument from conscience is that everyone in the world knows, deep down, that he is absolutely obligated to be and do good, and this absolute obligation could come only from God. Thus everyone knows God, however obscurely, by this moral intuition, which we usually call conscience. Conscience is the voice of God in the soul.

Note the highlighted bit. That's an unsupported -- and probably unsupportable -- assertion. Kreef himself points out four alternate explanations and dismisses them inappropriately and incorrectly. Just as a simple, example, he suggests that it might arise from some "ideal" and then argues that this is impossible:

The first possibility means that the basis of conscience is a law without a lawgiver. We are obligated absolutely to an abstract ideal, a pattern of behavior. The question then comes up, where does this pattern exist? If it does not exist anywhere, how can a real person be under the authority of something unreal?

This, of course, is absolute gibberish. Humans, for example, are absolutely subject to the abstraction known as the law of gravity -- if you don't believe me, I have an office window on a high floor and I invite Kreef to demonstrate how he is not "under the authority of" gravity. Perhaps fortuantely for him, I also have a hospital within three blocks of my office as well.

A more sophisticated argument would point out that social behavior is naturalized in humans (and other social primates) just as it is in bees -- or just as dam buildilng is in beavers. He rejects this as well.

The problem with that explanation is that it, like the first, does not account for the absoluteness of conscience's authority. We believe we ought to disobey an instinct—any instinct—on some occasions. But we do not believe we ought ever to disobey our conscience.

This is not only gibberish, but it's theologically incorrect. One of the key aspects of Christian theology is that "following the dictates of your own heart." is dangerous (The wise man says, "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool." -- Prov. 28:26) precisely because one's conscience can mislead one. -- "Thy heart tells thee so! Except the word of God beareth witness in this matter, other testimony is of no value. -- Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress)

Basically, his argument is laughable.
 
This is not only gibberish, but it's theologically incorrect. One of the key aspects of Christian theology is that "following the dictates of your own heart." is dangerous (The wise man says, "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool." -- Prov. 28:26) precisely because one's conscience can mislead one. -- "Thy heart tells thee so! Except the word of God beareth witness in this matter, other testimony is of no value. -- Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress).

I think you could make an argument either way on the theology. The Catechism, for example, says that "[Man] must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters." It goes on to say that "A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience", even though "it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments" - whence the obligation to strive for a "well-formed conscience", but not, for all that, to disobey one's conscience.
 
... and this absolute obligation could come only from God.
This is nothing more than saying:

... and this absolute obligation could come only from something that causes this obligation.

Connecting it with God is done only by wishful definition, not based on any evidence or logic.

~~ Paul
 
To begin with the argument is based on a falsehood. Psychopaths and sociopaths do not have the same built-in prosocial instincts most of us do, so it is not at all true to say "we all" have moral instincts.

Secondly, such instincts need no supernatural explanation if we are a species that evolved in an environment where cooperation increased our chances of surviving and successfully reproducing. Since we are just such a species there is no need to invoke the supernatural to explain the presence of moral instincts.

Kreeft attempts to refute this argument by claiming that conscience is unlike hunger, thirst or tiredness, and that therefore is must be of divine origin. The premise is factual, but the conclusion does not follow. If the conscience is adaptive to humans living in social groups then it can have evolved without needing to feel exactly like hunger or thirst introspectively.

Thirdly, humans also have instincts to assault, rape, murder, steal and so on in situations where doing so would increase our chances of surviving and successfully reproducing. This is difficult to reconcile with the theory that we were created with a built-in moral compass by a perfectly good God.
 
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Anybody who has had kids can tell you humans are not born with "good morals". Young kids are selfish, impulsive, violent and a host of other things. That's why parents must teach them things like sharing, not fighting and giving them an effing 5 minutes break now and again, good God, why do you think you have all those toys? Urg...

Seriously though, I still recall the first time I turned to my wife, said "Y'know, babies are selfish" and she answered "Duh".
 
Anybody who has had kids can tell you humans are not born with "good morals". Young kids are selfish, impulsive, violent and a host of other things. That's why parents must teach them things like sharing, not fighting and giving them an effing 5 minutes break now and again, good God, why do you think you have all those toys? Urg...

Seriously though, I still recall the first time I turned to my wife, said "Y'know, babies are selfish" and she answered "Duh".

Bet you that is a product of evolution. Babies/infants/toddlers have to compete with other younglings to survive in the wild since their ability to gather food and water for themselves is so limited. Cooperation amongst the young is nearly impossible because their understanding of the world is basically nil.

After the teenage years that selfishness somewhat diminishes. (In most people.) Cooperation is the best way to survive when it comes to adulthood.
 
Oh, I absolutely agree. Any way you slice it, it definitely has nothing to do with some sort of Innate Goodness. A world ruled by children would, in fact, be a very scary place. :wide-eyed
 
Kreef’s argument seems easily falsifiable. If the conscience is divine (or “could come only from God”) and is not merely one of the functions of the brain, then why is the conscience so easily altered by changes to brain physiology, for example, trauma?
 

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