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Kerosene melts steel, now that I figured out how would someone like to,

Crazy Chainsaw

Philosopher
Crazy Chainsaw
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
8,339
INFORM THE TRUTHERS? :D

It is actually a very old science and fuel the same that has been used to make Iron for centuries!

http://www.mastersweep.com/IMP.HTM

Carbon Black-coke-Charcoal-Soot from Hydrocarbon fires, is a much more efficient fuel that kerosene. Only there would have had to have been thick black smoke for it to form and spread though out the buildings.

Did anyone see any thick black smoke on 9/11/2001? ;)

Also hot carbon black can burn with Iron oxide underground for years. If it is hot enough not even water will put it out.

While kerosene has to absorb heat to vaporize carbon black will ignite when Oxygen or a suitable Oxide is present.
As long as the carbon is at the ignition temperature.

I just got so tired of the truthers saying that Kerosene can not melt steel that I went out and found out how it could, in conditions that were present on 9/11/2001.

I wish to add though that I feel that there is little to know evidence of it being involved in the cause although some after effects might be explained by it.

You can now call me crazy, if you want not problem used to it!
 
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I also have to laugh when they claim that the fuel doesn't consume the jet engine why should it melt steel? I will admit i don't know a whole lot about jet engines. But with racing engines. if you get the fuel curve wrong you can literally torch the cylinder heads and the deck of a block along with a sizable hole through the piston all the way to the top of the rod. All in less than six seconds. And thats with just straight methanol.
 
A W Smith said:
I also have to laugh when they claim that the fuel doesn't consume the jet engine why should it melt steel? I will admit i don't know a whole lot about jet engines. But with racing engines. if you get the fuel curve wrong you can literally torch the cylinder heads and the deck of a block along with a sizable hole through the piston all the way to the top of the rod. All in less than six seconds. And thats with just straight methanol.
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i usually figure it has to do with the fact that you arent igniting 10,000 gallons of it all at once

but truthers often fail to see the distinction between temperature and heat
 
The jet fuel in the towers burned off in a few minutes. There is no reason to believe that it melted steel there, or that steel was melted by the subsequent fires fueled by office and construction materials. The CTs use of that argument is a straw man fallacy.
 
defaultdotxbe said:
truthers often fail to see the distinction between temperature and heat
Click to expand...

In response to Iggy posting a link to a particularily hilarious video
I posted this:


If I were to pick just one favourite it would be the comment about the Chefs cooking over gas stoves afraid that their stainless steel cookware would melt.

Three points;
1) No chef in his right mind would leave any cookware on such a flame without anything in it, whether it be a liquid in a pot or oil in a pan. To do so would soon result in the cookware warping due to the heat. Chefs are very careful not to let the cookware get too hot.

2) The flame itself may have a high temp but that is not a measurement of the heat output. This is a common misconception among those with little or no science background and illustrates the severe lack of science knowledge of the authors of the text of this video. The gas flame temperature is just as hot when the stove is on low as it is when on high. So why can a pot of water not boil on low whereas it can on high? The heat output is simply not high enough to raise the temperature of the entire body of water to 1000C (212F) because the water can get rid of the heat as fast as it comes in once the system reaches equilibrium.(it only gets so hot then levels out then i/p=o/p)

Propane and natural gas combust at about 1900-19800C. Place any metal cookware in a furnace at that temp and it will become a puddle soon enough.

3) A pot on a stove is under no stress or strain other than its own mass. A structural column however certainly is. Thus a pot that has reached 7000C will be in danger of warping due to differences in the temp of various regions in the metal but it will not flatten. A steel column holding up a load at the same temp will, as a result of the loss of strength, start to succumb to that load, if it is greater than 50% of the max load it can handle when cool, and will bend under it. (in a first approx of the situation and thus assuming nothing except vertical loads through the center of the column)
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Gravy said:
The jet fuel in the towers burned off in a few minutes. There is no reason to believe that it melted steel there, or that steel was melted by the subsequent fires fueled by office and construction materials. The CTs use of that argument is a straw man fallacy.
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Exactly.

The CT'ers will often attempt to educate the fence sitters by teaching them a botched version of the official story before debating against it. Anyone can argue against all the points against one side of a debate if they made the points up for the other side.
 
The Doc said:
Exactly.

The CT'ers will often attempt to educate the fence sitters by teaching them a botched version of the official story before debating against it. Anyone can argue against all the points against one side of a debate if they made the points up for the other side.
Click to expand...

See by way of example Gravy's video at the GZ where he asks the CTers to explain what actually happened.....
 
Gravy said:
The jet fuel in the towers burned off in a few minutes. There is no reason to believe that it melted steel there, or that steel was melted by the subsequent fires fueled by office and construction materials. The CTs use of that argument is a straw man fallacy.
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Actually as long as the substance undergoing combustion releases carbon there can quite well be melted steel or other metals in the structures.

Carbon Black can under go more efficient combustion than Hydrocarbons or any other form of carbon compounds in the buildings.

It is just I do not believe there would be large amounts of melted metal from what I have seen the metal ignites, and burns not melts.
 
SLOB said:
Not only truthers...care to elaborate? I suck at these things.

/S
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Here are some explanations.

http://www.theweatherprediction.com/habyhints/39/

http://www.bautforum.com/archive/index.php/t-33602.html

edit: here's an interesting comment from Phil Plait:

There are places in the solar system (like the corona of the Sun, for example) where the temperature is millions of degrees. But these places have such a low density that you would feel almost no heat from them! The Universe is under no obligation to conform to our "common sense". We have to make sure our minds are open enough to comprehend its behavior when it does seem to be doing things "incorrectly"! http://www.badastronomy.com/bitesize/heat.html
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SLOB said:
Not only truthers...care to elaborate? I suck at these things.

/S
Click to expand...
a simple demonstration will help.
Go get 2 pieces of music wire (hobby, craft, hardware store) Get 1 about 1/16 inch diameter, the other 3/8 inch. Pick up a butane cigarettew lighter at the same time.
Fire up the lighter, and hole the 1/16 inch wire in the flame. Watch it glow cherry to orange colored. nThis will happen very quickly
Now put the larger piece in. Even though the flame is the same temperature, and the materials in the wires are the same, it won't happen--or at least not as quickly. The larger wire radiates heat faster than the flame can put it in, so it will not get as hot.
 
A W Smith said:
I also have to laugh when they claim that the fuel doesn't consume the jet engine why should it melt steel? I will admit i don't know a whole lot about jet engines. But with racing engines. if you get the fuel curve wrong you can literally torch the cylinder heads and the deck of a block along with a sizable hole through the piston all the way to the top of the rod. All in less than six seconds. And thats with just straight methanol.
Click to expand...
Rocket engines are made of steel, and they are supposed to run at temperatures many times above the melting point of steel. That probably means even the moon launches were faked. ;)

Unless of course someone came up with a clever cooling mechanism.
 
Unless of course someone came up with a clever cooling mechanism.
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Actually a clever insulating system is often better than a cooling system. With a cooling system you still have to dispose of the heat, so unless you have a way of using it, you have to add in extra weight to remove it. If you can insulate the steel from the heat then you don't have to worry about disposing of it. Now if you go one further and actually use something you already have there, and can get rid of before it heats up too much, to do the insulating then even better, and that's a really cool system (pun intended)
 
I always thought the reason the jet fuel fire from the impact didnt melt the engine was because the engine was travelling at 450-550 mph, and likely wasnt around the main jet fuel fire long enough to "melt"...but I could be wrong...lol

TAM:)
 
Earthborn said:
Rocket engines are made of steel, and they are supposed to run at temperatures many times above the melting point of steel. That probably means even the moon launches were faked. ;)

Unless of course someone came up with a clever cooling mechanism.
Click to expand...

I believe in the J2 engines used in the Saturn V (The Moon rocket), the liquid fuel (which was extremely cold) was pumped around the nozzle prior to being fed into the combustion chamber to cool the nozzle and also pre-warm the fuel.

I thought that was pretty ingenious.
 
rwguinn said:
a simple demonstration will help.
Go get 2 pieces of music wire (hobby, craft, hardware store) Get 1 about 1/16 inch diameter, the other 3/8 inch. Pick up a butane cigarettew lighter at the same time.
Fire up the lighter, and hole the 1/16 inch wire in the flame. Watch it glow cherry to orange colored. nThis will happen very quickly
Now put the larger piece in. Even though the flame is the same temperature, and the materials in the wires are the same, it won't happen--or at least not as quickly. The larger wire radiates heat faster than the flame can put it in, so it will not get as hot.
Click to expand...

Awwww...bloody hell. Its so...so obvious now. *sigh* Tnx for the explanation m8.

/S
 
qarnos said:
I believe in the J2 engines used in the Saturn V (The Moon rocket), the liquid fuel (which was extremely cold) was pumped around the nozzle prior to being fed into the combustion chamber to cool the nozzle and also pre-warm the fuel.

I thought that was pretty ingenious.
Click to expand...

If that is true, it's absolutely brilliant.
 
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