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Kansas at it again

Bikewer

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Sep 12, 2003
Messages
13,242
Location
St. Louis, Mo.
Again, a creationist type has been elected to the Kansas school board, setting the scene for more creationist/ID nonsense:


Couldn't link to the story for some reason, it's in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, attributed to John Milburn of the Associated Press:



TOPEKA, Kan. - In December, one month before conservatives are expected to regain control of the State Board of Education, a committee will present the board its first draft of proposed changes to the state's science standards.

That draft is expected to go back for revisions. That's typical. But the board that gets the second draft is likely to be much friendlier to the idea that creationism deserves a place alongside evolution in Kansas science classes.

That's a near certainty following the victory Tuesday by Kathy Martin of Clay Center over incumbent Bruce Wyatt of Salina, giving conservatives a 6-4 majority when the board convenes in January.

Martin, a retired science teacher, campaigned on her desire to see creationism taught alongside evolution.

"It will be coming right out of the chute," said board member Sue Gamble, a Shawnee Republican and part of the board's moderate bloc. "They have the votes.

"I'll have my objections, but the standards are going to change," she said.

Kansas revises science standards every three years. A 24-member committee has been working on new ones for several months, with the first draft due in December. Final approval is expected by summer 2005.

Alexa Pochowski, deputy education commissioner for learning services, said the science committee has members from all philosophical viewpoints spanning all content areas. Members were nominated by the board.

The struggle over science standards dates to 1999, when the board voted to de-emphasize evolution, leaving it up to individual school districts to decide how much students would learn about the origins of life.

Instead of standards with specific references requiring to students to understand evolution in detail, the board favored standards with few references to the theory. Standards are used to develop statewide tests to measure how well students are learning.

The changes drew international attention. The board was ridiculed and accused of undermining science education. The standards soon became the biggest campaign issue in board races in 2000, which saw moderates, including Gamble and Wyatt, take control.

The newly elected board quickly revised the standards in 2001, restoring references to evolution, and the issue faded.

However, the 2002 elections created a 5-5 split on the board and renewed the ideological tensions.

Pochowski said students are supposed to be tested under revised science standards in the 2007-08 school year - when the state is supposed to start testing on science annually, rather than every two years.

The committee is trying to clarify how teachers present science to students, Pochowski said. The standards must be based on evidence - whether they're dealing with creationism, intelligent design or evolution - while respecting the separation of church and state, she said.

"It doesn't mean those theories aren't important. It's a matter of whether it should be the parents or the schools making those decision," Pochowski said.

Intelligent design advocates say all theories, including evolution, should be examined critically.

John Calvert, Kansas manager of the Intelligent Design Network, said students should be taught that new discoveries bolster intelligent design and debunk theories that life began only through physical and chemical laws and by chance.

Martin advocates teaching all theories, giving students enough information to draw their own conclusions. She said such a compromise would make science standards "a non-issue."

Gamble said changing the science standards risks hurting not only education, but the state's business climate.

"How seriously do people take us when you're the butt of jokes on late night TV?" Gamble said.

If the standards adopted in 2005 include creationism or intelligent design - as Gamble expects - the issue could influence the 2006 elections.

And, as in 2001, the new board taking office in 2007 could reverse course again, which Gamble said only creates uncertainty in education.

"It makes people question if there is any value in standards at all," she said.

Calvert said all-inclusive standards will strengthen Kansas' reputation.

"The goal of public education is to inform," he said. "So at least exposing students to the ideas and scientific arguments on both sides of the issue will actually promote better science education."




Seems to be a never-ending battle.
 
When are they going to require science teachers take some science courses themselves? That science teacher in the article advocates that creationism be "taught".

Isn't that what churches are for?

And when are they going to get it through their thick skulls that EVOLUTION IS NOT ABOUT THE ORIGINS OF LIFE??! It's not. It's about evolution of life, not origins of life.

I still remember that science teacher I had in grade eight that told the class that evolution was crap, and laughed at it, and ridiculed it. He is an avid creationist that is now the principal of the junior high school.

I had a crappy science education those years in junior high!! You could even opt out of the entire class in grade 9 that included dissections, your choice. I didn't opt out. I chopped up that frog and enjoyed learning about all the insides. The worm too.
 
Eos of the Eons said:
....
I had a crappy science education those years in junior high!! You could even opt out of the entire class in grade 9 that included dissections, your choice. I didn't opt out. I chopped up that frog and enjoyed learning about all the insides. The worm too.

I never got to do dissections, I envy you. I think they'd been knocked out of the UK syllabi a few years before I came through it.

My comprehensive school science teacher qualified every lesson about evolution, geology or anything like that with constant reminders about how he didn't believe any of it was true because he was a christian.

Fortunately for other christians, I don't connect his bad temper, poor teaching skills or hallitosis to his faith. Just his credulity.
 
Send these poor kids to be educated in Australia instead. We hold no truck with idiocies like that here. Even the state here with the highest ratio of creationst-politicians-to-normals didn't even let that one get to the starting line, and that was 20 years ago.

Reality check: Your kids need to be properly educated in order to make any sort of a living in the world these days. So why handicap them by denying them the very education they desperately need to do this? Or is Kansas intent on breeding thickwit hillbillies?
 
Benguin said:
I never got to do dissections, I envy you. I think they'd been knocked out of the UK syllabi a few years before I came through it.

They are still there just about.
My comprehensive school science teacher qualified every lesson about evolution, geology or anything like that with constant reminders about how he didn't believe any of it was true because he was a christian.

He must have been in a rather small minority.
 
geni said:
They are still there just about.

I only did GCSE Biology, we only cut up plants. I think we got to cut up an eyeball in physics.

He must have been in a rather small minority.


As a useless oddball, I don't think he was in any danger of being in a small minority at the school I went to!

As a bible-thumping science teacher in the UK, probably. I don't think he should have been teaching science. He was naff at it anyway.
 
Zep said:
... Or is Kansas intent on breeding thickwit hillbillies?
Are there any hillbillies in Kansas? Isn't mainly plains and wheat?
 
My science teacher in 7th form (no, I'm not going to explain myself :p), when he was covering evolution, constantly said that he wasn't saying that we had to believe in it; it was just one story.

Of course, he was a good scientist, and did believe in it...he was just trying to be 'PC'.

Then he done went and fall off his motorbike. Lost a leg. Poor bugger, he was going to antarctica again for another research trip, and now will never get that chance.
 
Bikewer said:
Alexa Pochowski, deputy education commissioner for learning services, said the science committee has members from all philosophical viewpoints spanning all content areas. Members were nominated by the board.

Here's the problem. Who are these people on the science committee? The last time around, a few were listed, including, believe it or not, a minister! How is a minister qualified to determine what belongs in a science curriculum?

The science committee should not have "all philosophical viewpoints." It should have only scientific viewpoints. Let the philosophy committee have all philisophic viewpoints.

The state of Kansas employs hundreds of great scientists in all fields. Many of these are on the faculty at institutions like the University of Kansas, Kansas State, and Wichita State. Why doesn't the state ask _them_ what should be included in the science curriculum? I'll support whatever they recommend.
 
Bikewer said:

Instead of standards with specific references requiring to students to understand evolution in detail, the board favored standards with few references to the theory. Standards are used to develop statewide tests to measure how well students are learning.

Well heck, why not revise the chemistry standards so students don't have to undestand the atomic theory in detail?

This smacks of "If they understand evolution, the students might think it makes a lot of sense."


The committee is trying to clarify how teachers present science to students, Pochowski said. The standards must be based on evidence - whether they're dealing with creationism, intelligent design or evolution - while respecting the separation of church and state, she said.

This leads me to another question. What evidence is there for creationism? Now I'm a chemist by trade, but from what I've read on the subject I see no evidence for creationism. For that matter, I've seen no concrete THEORY of creationism either. What the heck do you teach when you teach creationism?
 
Re: Re: Kansas at it again

Occasional Chemist said:
This leads me to another question. What evidence is there for creationism? Now I'm a chemist by trade, but from what I've read on the subject I see no evidence for creationism. For that matter, I've seen no concrete THEORY of creationism either. What the heck do you teach when you teach creationism?
Well, there are a few points;

1. The bible says so.

2. Humans are, like, really complex, so we must have been designed, musn't we.

3. Err..., that's it!
 
Re: Re: Re: Kansas at it again

wollery said:
Well, there are a few points;

1. The bible says so.

2. Humans are, like, really complex, so we must have been designed, musn't we.

3. Err..., that's it!

Here's the proof right here!

miracle.jpg
 
Re: Re: Kansas at it again

pgwenthold said:
Here's the problem. Who are these people on the science committee? The last time around, a few were listed, including, believe it or not, a minister! How is a minister qualified to determine what belongs in a science curriculum?

The science committee should not have "all philosophical viewpoints." It should have only scientific viewpoints. Let the philosophy committee have all philisophic viewpoints.

The state of Kansas employs hundreds of great scientists in all fields. Many of these are on the faculty at institutions like the University of Kansas, Kansas State, and Wichita State. Why doesn't the state ask _them_ what should be included in the science curriculum? I'll support whatever they recommend.

There is also the logical flaw of believing all different viewpoints should be given equal weighting, fairly apportioned.

A science lesson could incorporate a discussion on creationism, ID etc. Probably good that it should, a good hard debate on irreducable complexity is great for developing critical thinking.

The game these fundies play is setting an iffy dichotemy between ID/Creationism and big bang/geology/evolution etc and using that to start playing with ideas of equal footings and fair representation.

Even if they win their argument about having it taught in the syllabus, the fact these fundie philosophies are lacking in evidence and following in the scientific community should deny them any more than miniscule apportionment of time and resources. If any logic were applied to it, that is.
 
Re: Re: Re: Kansas at it again

wollery said:
Well, there are a few points;

1. The bible says so.

2. Humans are, like, really complex, so we must have been designed, musn't we.

3. Err..., that's it!

From what I understand, #2 is the whole of intelligent design "theory" - i.e. not a theory at all. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this one - if there's a theory I might have missed buried in there somewhere. :)

(I don't buy into "it's too complicated to have come about naturally", but that's another argument. I'm just trying to figure out what exactly they're going to try to teach these poor Kansas kids.)
 
That's pretty much it. The ID guys are careful not to name the "designer", as that might smack of religion. I actually heard one of these types on Science Friday, and he was waffling to beat the band. "Well, maybe intelligent aliens..."

Needless to say, even grade-school kids can ask, "Where did the aliens come from?"

Intelligent design is not a theory, as it proposes nothing that could be observed or tested. At best, it's metaphysics.

It has no traction with the scientific community, but creationists have understandably fallen in love with the notion. Some have called it "back-door creationism."
 
Bikewer said:
That's pretty much it. The ID guys are careful not to name the "designer", as that might smack of religion. I actually heard one of these types on Science Friday, and he was waffling to beat the band. "Well, maybe intelligent aliens..."

Needless to say, even grade-school kids can ask, "Where did the aliens come from?"

Intelligent design is not a theory, as it proposes nothing that could be observed or tested. At best, it's metaphysics.

It has no traction with the scientific community, but creationists have understandably fallen in love with the notion. Some have called it "back-door creationism."

If we're interested in equal time, could we get the Omphalos Hypothesis taught in the classroom? It's so easy in fact it could probably be taught in a one-hour class, although that may in fact just be an implanted memory by the creator. Works for me, and it would save the school districts money on buying all those science books. More money for football, hooray!
 
Occasional Chemist said:
From what I understand, #2 is the whole of intelligent design "theory" - i.e. not a theory at all. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this one - if there's a theory I might have missed buried in there somewhere. :)
Well they have all sorts of explanations about why the evolutionists have been fooled, but actually irreducible complexity is all they have!

I don't buy into "it's too complicated to have come about naturally", but that's another argument. I'm just trying to figure out what exactly they're going to try to teach these poor Kansas kids.
They want to try to teach them not to be brainwashed by them damned evil atheists.
 
Sniff.

Only evil athiests can understand and know evolution in any great depth?


Well, ya know, the earth is flat... and dinos never existed. Scientists are idiots. The world will be here FOREVER, and we don't need to do a darn thing to help ourselves cause everything will be provided for (only) the good little xtians that live right.


There, am I not an evil atheist now? Can I have textbook on evolution. Oh, that will make me an evil atheist again. But it sounds interesting...please can I learn about it? Oh, god said "let there be light", end of story. I'll go play in the mud now.

Why does every mammal have eyes? Cause god said it was to be so. Oh. Okay. I'll go play in the mud now.

Why were there notochords before spinal cords? Cause god said it was to be so, and notochords were around the same time as spinal cords. Oh. I'll go play in the mud now.

Why do some dogs have fur and others have hair? I know, god said it is to be so. Want a mud pie?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Kansas at it again

Occasional Chemist said:
From what I understand, #2 is the whole of intelligent design "theory" - i.e. not a theory at all. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on this one - if there's a theory I might have missed buried in there somewhere. :)
It isnt definable, it isnt testable, it isnt observable, it isnt falsifyable, it isnt malleable, it has no meaningful explanatory power, it isnt distinguishable from purely evolutionary phenomena (nor can it be distinguished from all other any other equally intangible explanations)... so why call it a theory?

Intelligent Design is Creationism under a deceptive guise.
 

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