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JFK -- Here we go again

patchbunny

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Scientists cast doubt on Kennedy bullet analysis

By John Solomon, washingtonpost.com
Updated: 7:07 p.m. PT May 16, 2007

In a collision of 21st-century science and decades-old conspiracy theories, a research team that includes a former top FBI scientist is challenging the bullet analysis used by the government to conclude that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in assassinating President John F. Kennedy in 1963.

The "evidence used to rule out a second assassin is fundamentally flawed," concludes a new article in the Annals of Applied Statistics written by former FBI lab metallurgist William A. Tobin and Texas A&M University researchers Cliff Spiegelman and William D. James.

More can be found here.

Though at first glance it sounds like he's stating that the fragments did not come from the same batch as the other bullets, he's really stating that the lead test can't prove that they did. I am curious to see how this pans out.
 
I found this conclusion bizarre:
Tobin, Spiegelman and James: "If the assassination fragments are derived from three or more separate bullets, then a second assassin is likely, as the additional bullet would not be attributable to the main suspect, Mr. Oswald."
[italics mine]

Why not? Isn't there some uncertainty about whether it was two or three shots?
 
They are discussing what looks like a chemical test. I was under the impression that it was a Neutron analysis that was the big kicker in showing Oswald did it.
 
I don't think it really means anything. Even if the test originally used was flawed, it doesn't appear that the team has a method that can prove conclusively that the fragments were from more than two bullets.
 
chipmunk stew; That does seem a bit odd, logically speaking. But if only the one box of bullets (or multiple boxes from the same batch) were recovered, then Oswald is unlikely to have sourced two individual bullets from different sources, alongside one bullet from his main stash. I think that's what's being said. You can bet that the Post pressed them for a comment as to what results would suggest a second gunman. They may not even fully realise the conspiracy crudstorm and spotty white teenage male groupies that could soon follow their every move.

Otherwise, this actually seems fair enough. The researchers, especially this Tobin chap, appear legit. He's not challenging the matching of bullets by striations etc left via barrel rifling (AFAICT), he's questioning the validity of metallurgical matching; see this PDF article.

According to both articles, the FBI has actually discontinued use of this technique as a result of such questioning. So it seems entirely justified for him to go back over high-profile cases and apply the same critical approach.

It's a setback of sorts, but it by no means acts as evidence to the contrary. Of course our conspiracy theorist chums will be on this like Dylan Avery on a big pile of cash.
 
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I found this conclusion bizarre:

[italics mine]

Why not? Isn't there some uncertainty about whether it was two or three shots?

The Warren Commission report says three shots. Two hits (with recovered ballistic evidence) and one clean miss with the bullet lost.
If there is evidence of fragments from three bullets that would mean four shots.
In addition the recovered expended cartridge casings from the Book Depository were all from a single batch, and showed no indication of having been reloaded. So, again, unmatching bullet fragments indicates another shot, and possibly another shooting location.

Robert Klaus
 
This page has a 2001 analysis of the JFK-related NAA evidence. Looks interesting. Here's his summary:

Overall summary of logic

1. The spectrographic analysis done the night of the assassination was nearly worthless. At best, it showed only the broad similarities of composition mentioned in J. Edgar Hoover’s letter to Jesse Curry on 23 November 1963. No bullets or fragments could be definitely linked from these data.

2. George Michael Evica’s conclusions drawn from these data in his 1979 book are so riddled with errors as to be useless.

3. The FBI’s 1964 analyses of the particles by NAA were of much higher quality than recognized previously.

4. Vincent P. Guinn’s reanalysis by NAA in 1977 involved compromises that rendered his results less useful than they appeared at first.

5. Guinn found that the five basic fragments fell into two tight groups, one with two fragments that corresponded to the body shot, and another with three fragments that corresponded to the head shot.

6. When the FBI’s data are corrected for systematic errors discovered by Guinn, they reveal the same two tight groups found by Guinn.

7. Measurements by Guinn on quarters of “reference” WCC/MC bullets reveal that his major indicator element, antimony, varies enough in concentration (is sufficiently heterogeneous) to make the two tight groups of fragments overlap and form one big group from which no conclusions about origins can be drawn.

8.Taken at face value, this heterogeneity would destroy the usefulness of NAA in the JFK assassination. (Bolding mine).

9.Counter to this is the extreme statistical improbability of having the five fragments randomly fall so tightly into the only two physically meaningful groups.

10.The heterogeneity and the tight groupings, both of which seem to have been measured properly and calculated properly, cannot coexist as cause and effect.

11. The obvious trial explanation is that the heterogeneity of quarters does not apply to these bullets and fragments.

12. The FBI’s data on replicate aliquots of large fragments shows that antimony is in all cases nearly homogenous at this small scale—standard deviations of 5% within fragments, as opposed to 24% within bullets and 90% over individual bullets.

13. This 5% within fragments strongly resembles the 3% standard deviations within the two groups of fragments and the 2%–3% from typical NAA analyses.

14. Thus the fragments have the small heterogeneities of tiny subfragments rather than the larger heterogeneities of quarters.

15. This would be compatible with the little fragments having been produced from irregular ends of the large particles that were recovered, i.e., very near each other.

16. This is obviously what happened for CE 399, whose lead core remained intact except for fragments shorn from the small fraction of the lead extruded from the open, bottom end of the bullet. The little fragment would then match the remaining core, which was sampled only at the extruded end.

17. Since only one large piece of the lead core from the head bullet was recovered, it is possible that it broke only once and that the tiny particles recovered from the rear carpet and the president’s brain all originated along this break. In fact, without another large lead core, this simple scenario has to be assumed.

18. Thus the large heterogeneities in quarters of bullets do not apply to the fragments from the assassination, which are nearly homogeneous in antimony.

19. If so, it is fruitless to analyze quarters of other WCC/MC bullets to try to refine the 24% heterogeneity because this figure does not apply to the fragments from the assassination.

20. Other important consequences of this new interpretation of the NAA data include:

a) Every fragment recovered and tested came from Oswald’s rifle to the exclusion of all other rifles.
b) Two and only two bullets, both WCC/MC, are represented by the fragments.
c) Both bullets were fired that day.
d) Therefore, CE 399 was not previously fired and planted in Parkland Hospital.
e) All the fragments are genuine, and we need not worry about chains of custody.
f) The close match between the stretcher bullet and the fragments from Connally's wrist lends very strong support to the SBT but does not prove it.
g) If JFK was hit from the right front, none of those fragments were found and tested.
h) Anyone who speaks of another shooter is doing so in the complete absence of physical evidence.
i) Dr. Guinn was right, even if he did fully justify his conclusions.
j) With a chance of roughly one in a million of being wrong, the NAA evidence may be the strongest of the entire assassination.
k) The sense of the simple two-bullet, one-rifle result for the fragments agrees with the sense of the two-motion, one bullet result from physical analysis of JFK's motions after the head shot. This crime was really very simple indeed.
l) We no longer need to know the exact locations of the back wound or the entrance and exit wounds to the head in order to get the right explanation for the assassination.
m)It is time to let this crime go and move on to new areas of research. One guy did it with a cheap rifle, and almost missed all three shots. It's time to close this chapter of American history.

According to this expert, the NAA evidence is actually the best available, and concerns over it have already been addressed. Seems pretty conclusive to me. What do Tobin and the gang have to bring to the table?
 
Some comments:

Three shots were fired that day in Dealey Plaza. Not 2, and not 4. All were fired from the rifle sticking out of the 6th floor window of the Texas School Book Depository. Too many witnesses corroborate, too much evidence proves that this is the case.

Assume that this "new" evidence is like Stephen Jones's "breakthrough analysis" that thermite brought down the WTC 1, 2 and 7 based on metallurgical testing. They've proved exactly nothing. The press picks this up because the press knows it will cause the public to prick up its ears. Ratings, ratings, ratings. Notice in the story that nowhere does it state how overwhelming evidence and proof clearly indicate that Oswald was the lone shooter. Nope - they went right for the ratings by their subtitle of: Multiple shooters possible... Next thing you know, they'll put Fetzer in a story, where he concludes the Zapruder film is a fake.

Notice how the story indicates that it was the bullet analysis only, which caused the government to conclude that Oswald acted alone. Patently false. How much do we bet that the writer of this story, John Solomon, never read the entire Warren Report?

Convenient that Vincent P. Guinn, the original analyzer of the bullet fragments, is now dead and cannot further defend his work and conclusions.

The researchers bought bullets that are still on the market as collectors items, to do their testing?

Notice how the story states - without equivocation - that the original analysis and assumptions were wrong - and then provides absolutely nothing to back it up. It's just "what the researchers said".

This is exactly how you get people in today's ten-second attention span media to accept essentially anything presented on the TeeVee as fact by mainstream media. Mainstream media is no longer in the business of the display of journalism or objective reporting or fairness or any such lofty goals. Ratings only. How to get the moths to buzz around the bright light.
 
ConspiRaider: when exactly did the media care for anything BUT ratings ?
As far as news reporting goes - it used to be better. On the networks, news was carried as overhead, as an expense. Essentially as a service to the viewing public. It's why it was delivered to the viewer by rumpled, rather ordinary-looking guys such Cronkite, Huntley, Brinkley, Reynolds and so forth. There were standards, similar to the tough standards major newspapers placed on themselves to encourage objectivity and accuracy in reporting.

But then the changeover started.

Hollywood initially jumped on the "showbizzing" of the TeeVee news as far back as the 70s. See the flick "Network", and the later "Broadcast News".

Once it was decided that news reporting had to be a profit center on TeeVee - it ceased being news. It had to become entertainment first and foremost.

Flawed as the Internet is - still the best source for real news, if you know where to look. TeeVee has forever lost its credibility as an outlet of objective reporting and analysis. That era has passed.
 
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ConspiRaider has the news point nailed- there was a golden time when newscasters at network level had a sense of journalistic integrity - and the people in charge of the news department took that integrity seriously. That time is gone and infotainment for the money is pretty much the rule. As a humorous side note a source spoke of the situation in country (due to ACM awards Tues. night) music of faces replacing talent in that field. News has that too as do too many others.
 
But.. but.. I'm still mad as hell! And I'm not gonna take it anymore!
Off the top of my head, from Network:

"There is a whole... an entire generation that didn't know anything that didn't come out of this Tube! This Tube is the ultimate, this Tube can make or break Presidents, Prime Ministers, Popes - this Tube is the most awesome goddamn force in the whole godless world!"

...but you people sit there night after night, all races, colors, creeds - you're beginning to believe the fantasies we're spinning. You're beginning to believe that we're real and that your own lives have no meaning! You eat like the Tube, you dress like the Tube, you raise your children like the Tube, you're even beginning to THINK like the Tube! This is mass madness, you maniacs! You people are the real thing - we are the illusion!

So turn it off, turn your televisions off, turn them off and leave them off, turn them off right in the middle of this sentence I'm speaking to you right now... TURN THEM OFF!"
 
Nicely done, from off the top of your head. "Network" is one of my all-time top 5 movies. You're right: we still believe that the talking heads we see on our evening newscasts have the journalistic integrity of Uncle Walter, when in fact it's all driven by how many Fords they can sell us between stories.
 
ConspiRaider has the news point nailed- there was a golden time when newscasters at network level had a sense of journalistic integrity - and the people in charge of the news department took that integrity seriously. That time is gone and infotainment for the money is pretty much the rule. As a humorous side note a source spoke of the situation in country (due to ACM awards Tues. night) music of faces replacing talent in that field. News has that too as do too many others.
Good point, FA, on the music angle. I've been talking about that for quite awhile - about how ordinary-looking, and sometimes downright ugly - musicians used to be. Probably was a motivator in them turning their creative focus on music. Their beauty was in their awesome talent and nobody at all cared what they looked like.

And now we've got lip-syncing runway models to do our singing and musicianing for us.

I got in just under the wire - just before MTV decided that everyone had to "watch" music, rather than experience it. Lucky boy, am I. I think I've seen a total of about 6 music videos in my life. Yee-hah! I can turn on a song or a piece of music and make up my own unique video. How awesome is that?
 
If the problem is in interpretation of the results by Guinn and/or the FBI, then surely the guy whose page I linked to (and no doubt others too) has accounted for that misinterpretation?

Even if not, this quote from said guy holds very true: "Anyone who speaks of another shooter is doing so in the complete absence of physical evidence."
 
Though at first glance it sounds like he's stating that the fragments did not come from the same batch as the other bullets, he's really stating that the lead test can't prove that they did. I am curious to see how this pans out.

The reporter here has a history of pushing a headline about as far as he can for controversy's sake. He's got a vendetta (or a source with a vendetta) for Harry Reid, and has published several stories on Reid that bury exculpatory facts under flashy headlines. IOW, this is Solomon's M.O.

The lead test isn't the rock solid case it was made out to be. I guess we'll just have to rely on all the other evidence to figure this out. And the other evidence is conclusive - Oswald shot JFK all by himself.
 

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