Jews and Tattoos

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

It's my understanding that Jews are forbidden to have tattoos or similar body markings because altering one's body is unconsidered ungodly.

So, what I want to know is, why do so many Jews have plastic surgery done, then? Wouldn't that be much worse than a tattoo?

 

[Jackalgirl]

It's my understanding that Jews are forbidden to have tattoos or similar body markings because altering one's body is unconsidered ungodly.

So, what I want to know is, why do so many Jews have plastic surgery done, then? Wouldn't that be much worse than a tattoo?

I think this was mentioned in the "Circumcision" thread. Someone said that Orthodox Jews have this stricture against messing with one's body, since God made it and therefore it's perfect...and yet they cut the foreskin off. You might be interested -- tho a warning: it's a long, long thread.

 

[Cleon]

So, what I want to know is, why do so many Jews have plastic surgery done, then?

Er...How many is "so many?" And how many of them are actually observant?

 

[shalomsteph]

Er...How many is "so many?" And how many of them are actually observant?

Thanks for pointing that out. I am Jewish. I would never get a tattoo not because of anything the torah says, but because I think it is disrespectful to those who were tattooed against their will in the Holocaust. I don't care what other Jews do...just me.

As for plastic surgery, I wouldn't do that, either. Again, nothing biblical, just because I like who I am, wrinkles, stretch marks, C section scar and all. Most practicing Jews do not have plastic surgery unless it is for something like a breast reconstruction or cleft palate...something legitimate.

I am not a practicing Jew....more of a cultural Jew...but I respect everyone's right to practice/not practice how they see fit. Despite my scofflaw of all things Torah, my daughter keeps kosher and goes to shul.

 

[JJM 777]

I cannot speak on behalf of Jews / Judaism either, since I am neither a Jew nor a Judaist.

However, the incredible cost and difficulty of removing traditional tattoos, while easily removable alternatives have been invented, would inspire me to write a law that bans the traditional tattooing methods. Should anyone ask me.

The modern methods look and feel essentially similar to traditional tattoos, and last a lifetime. But the colour is made of such material that can be quickly and easily destroyed with laser treatment, should the person come to other thoughts later in life.

Now to Judaism: I think the Hebrew Bible instructs not to alter the skin in any way, neither cutting nor drawing images on it, but:

- Make-up is occasionally mentioned in the Bible, without much criticism. What is the fundamental difference between make-up (temporary skin drawing) and tattoo (permanent skin drawing)?

- It is mentioned that hair (and I should add, fingernails and toe nails) should be kept trimmed, not removing completely nor letting them grow wild.

 

[JoeEllison]

I'm sensing something vaguely bigoted about this thread...

 

[David Swidler]

Leviticus 19:23 is the source of the ban. There's no reason given in the text - in fact it's pretty rare for specific reasons to appear with the commandments - but the context is a series of passages dealing with social justice and avoiding typically pagan behavior. My guess is that tattoos and cutting oneself in mourning fall into the latter category.

As far as cosmetic surgery goes, I'm not familiar with a specific prohibition, but I do know that it's frowned upon in the Orthodox world, probably just as much for "conspicuous consumption" reasons as for any other.

I have heard that reconstructive surgery is specifically permitted in contemporary Rabbinic treatments of the subject, but the jury is still out on completely elective stuff. A lot of it depends on the particuar community in question, IIRC.

 

[Meadmaker]

It's my understanding that Jews are forbidden to have tattoos or similar body markings because altering one's body is unconsidered ungodly.

So, what I want to know is, why do so many Jews have plastic surgery done, then? Wouldn't that be much worse than a tattoo?

Comparing Orthodox Jews to Reform Jews isn't very productive.

I was once speaking to an Orthodox rabbi and made the comment that it seemed that Orthodox Judaism and Reform Judaism were really two different religions. His response was, "I'm glad you said that, not me."

My guess is that non-reconstructive plastic surgery would be very rare among Orthodox Jews.

(My other guess is that plastic surgery would not be especially common among Jews of any sort. Do you have any details on what you meant by "so many"?)

 

[Father Dagon]

Thanks for pointing that out. I am Jewish. I would never get a tattoo not because of anything the torah says, but because I think it is disrespectful to those who were tattooed against their will in the Holocaust. I don't care what other Jews do...just me.

But aren't you missing the difference between voluntary-involuntary? One popular misconception is that before the 80's, only sailors, prostitutes and bikers wore tattoos. But that misconception stems from the more or less constantly insecure middle class. People from the upper classes did experiment with tattoos during the victorian age, and problably much earlier.

The Holocaust targeted any jew it could get its hands on. Jews from every imaginable nation and every strata became victims. So statistically speaking, there should be quite some jews who was tatooed prior the Holocaust - and damn proud of their tattoos. And then they are desecrated with this...this...this serial number who isn't even well made.

It's your life and your coice. But please don't look upon all tattoos as if they are the same.

 

[Crossbow]

It's my understanding that Jews are forbidden to have tattoos or similar body markings because altering one's body is unconsidered ungodly.

So, what I want to know is, why do so many Jews have plastic surgery done, then? Wouldn't that be much worse than a tattoo?

I am not Jewish, but I think that the rationale for circumcision and plastic surgery is that they are viewed as medical procedures (and therefore, OK), whereas tattoos are viewed as a self-inflicted desecration (and therefore, not OK).

 

[Meadmaker]

Leviticus 19:23

Methinks there is a typo:

" And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of."

 

[HarryKeogh]

I googled around a bit and came up with this...

http://www.jewishjournal.com/home/preview.php?id=13552

My grandparents’ disapproval was actually a more traditionally Jewish response than many other Jewish parents of that generation seemed to have, at least in respect to the Jewish law banning self-mutilation. But most Jewish theologians actually make allowances for plastic surgery, depending on the situation.

“From a Jewish perspective, you’re not allowed to intentionally injure your body, because your body belongs to God and you have it on trust during your life,” explained Rabbi Elliot Dorff, author of “Matters of Life and Death: A Jewish Approach to Modern Medical Ethics” (JPS, 2004). However, he added, “we do have the permission and even the mandate to heal. The Jewish tradition understood mental illness to be a serious matter.”
In other words, therapeutic plastic surgery, to cure burn victims, for example, is allowed by Jewish law. So is the removal of a big mole, argues Dorff. “Even some things that are not physically problematic, but are nevertheless very distasteful, I think that would be very reasonable,” he said, noting the immediate gray area that arises. “You clearly are allowed to do other things to look better, like dress better or pierce your ears, to feel good about yourself. The question is whether you are allowed to undergo surgery to look better — the degree to which surgery is the proper response to the feeling,” Dorff said.

To me it looks like some semantic gymnastics to justify being able to get a nose or boob job. Their religion prescribes a mode of action and people try to figure out how to get around it. Of course, practitioners of every religion do this.

 

[volatile]

However, the incredible cost and difficulty of removing traditional tattoos, while easily removable alternatives have been invented, would inspire me to write a law that bans the traditional tattooing methods. Should anyone ask me.

The modern methods look and feel essentially similar to traditional tattoos, and last a lifetime. But the colour is made of such material that can be quickly and easily destroyed with laser treatment, should the person come to other thoughts later in life.

Not quite true. There is one company who have patented a type of ink which they claim is laser-erasable, if my memory serves me correctly, but it has not been widely tested and is certainly not in use by any reputable tattoo artists that I know of.

See: http://needled.com/blog/entries/disappearing-ink/
http://www.needled.com/blog/entries/guest-blog-fading-tattoo-inks/
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/issues/2007/january/tattoo-remove.php


It is indeed difficult to impossible to completely remove tattoos, thus caution is to be advised in selection of design and of artist. But banning it is absurd, really. Why can't we be trusted with our own bodies?

 

[Meadmaker]

Their religion prescribes a mode of action and people try to figure out how to get around it. Of course, practitioners of every religion do this.

But we are especially good at it!

 

[NobbyNobbs]

I think this was mentioned in the "Circumcision" thread. Someone said that Orthodox Jews have this stricture against messing with one's body, since God made it and therefore it's perfect...and yet they cut the foreskin off. You might be interested -- tho a warning: it's a long, long thread.

True, the belief is that you don't screw around with God's perfect creation...except when ordered to do so by God. The reason for Jewish circumsion is by way of an order from God, to distinguish them as his chosen people.


I guess it comes under the same heading of no one but the original artist is allowed to edit the painting.

 

[volatile]

For anyone interested in this question, I'd also recommend 'Does God Hate your Tattoos? at BMEZine.com.

 

[Loss Leader]

It's my understanding that Jews are forbidden to have tattoos or similar body markings because altering one's body is unconsidered ungodly.

So, what I want to know is, why do so many Jews have plastic surgery done, then? Wouldn't that be much worse than a tattoo?

The answer to your question is that Jewish people choose their degree of orthodoxy and observance, just like every other religion. Whatever the "rule" may or may not be, some people choose to observe it and some don't. Some branches of the religion choose to interpret the rule one way and some another way.

Among the ultra-orthodox and Hassidim, I would expect plastic surgery to be very rare and tattoos to be unheard of. In my particular branch of egalitarian Conservative Judaism, plastic surgery is tolerated and there's a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on tattoos.

And, of course, I am required to ask what evidence you have that "so many" Jews have plastic surgery? And why does your question assume that Jews actually follow their religious rules any more strictly than anyone of any other religion?

 

[Miss Anthrope]

I only have experience with extended family that is either "reform" (very liberal) or simply ethnic Jews. Although we celebrate holidays, none of my closest family is religious, rather, we observe traditions.

One of those traditions has been to tell children they'll be disowned if they have tattoos. (That never lasts past the teen years) Just about everyone in our family under the age of 40 has tattoos. My husband is covered from waist to wrist in them. And it's usually because their parents, who weren't believers but very traditional, frowned on them and made a huge deal of it. Oddly enough, my parents didn't care, and I don't have any tattoos.

As for plastic surgery, some do, some don't. But again, aside from my husband's grandmother, I don't know any of us, right down to third and fourth cousins, who are actually religious Jews. Usually the older generation frowns on things like tattoos, because they learned it from their parents.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I know quite a few Jews, some of them observant, who have had plastic surgery done and I was curious.

I found this site: http://www.geocities.com/mnlerner2000/ and somewhere in the Frequently Asked Questions, plastic surgery is mentioned and a rabbi says it's allright.

Not that I care whether anyone has had plastic surgery or a tattoo, although I'd never get either, I'm just curious.