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Jesus Wasn't Pagan

m_huber

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http://www.bede.org.uk/frazer.htm

None of the attempts made by sceptics to demonstrate that Christianity is false because it contains alleged pagan elements is credible or convincing. There are admittedly many good arguments against Christianity, but this simply is not one of them.

I found this site while researching on the pagan/christian parallels. The site rebuts some of the common claims of the parallels, then goes into some level of detail in rebutting Dennis MacDonald's book, "The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark."

So, is this a good argument against Christianity, or not?
 
Jesus Wasn't Pagan

Well I'm pretty sure he was Jewish. (at least that's what all the "my boss is a jewish carpenter" bumper stickers imply) ;)

So, is this a good argument against Christianity, or not?

NOT.

You can't really argue "faith"......It's been done here, and for a few thousand years. I don't see it going away in my lifetime.

Maybe there is hope for the space travelers?
 
I'm not sure that I asked the question clearly enough in the OP.

When discussing flaws in Christianity, is it valid to state that the Bible draws heavily on pagan myths in the construction of what we now consider to be the life of Jesus? The provided link would say "no," other sources say "yes."
 
I'm not sure that I asked the question clearly enough in the OP.

When discussing flaws in Christianity, is it valid to state that the Bible draws heavily on pagan myths in the construction of what we now consider to be the life of Jesus? The provided link would say "no," other sources say "yes."

Yes there are clear parallels with Pagan tradition. However, more sophisticated Christian apologists such as C S Lewis would argue that this was simply an echo of things to come. That God used themes readily understood about birth, death, new life.

It is only a stumbling block to those tied to an extremely literal understanding of the Bible. Although a vocal minority in the US they are not that common elsewhere. So in short it has a very limited mileage in relation to who the majority of Christians think Jesus was and doesn't really present a challenge to them. The Roman Catholic Church swallowed whole lumps of Paganism and incorporated them into their body. They did not do this accidentally so one can hardly go "Ha ha! see that was once Pagan". They are, by and large, fairly comfortable with the process.
 
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I'm not sure that I asked the question clearly enough in the OP.

When discussing flaws in Christianity, is it valid to state that the Bible draws heavily on pagan myths in the construction of what we now consider to be the life of Jesus? The provided link would say "no," other sources say "yes."

The link you provided was interesting, however there is the usual reason behind the thinking employed by the author, namely, that the author is obviously christian.

At that point of recognition one is dealing with a biased viewpoint, the defence of the person's own faith.
Because of the nature of faith based enquiry, this has to be taken into account when reading it . Faith uses bias to support its own claims. It has to. Otherwise it suffers....(loses converts).

It is not an objective viewpoint, is it?

However subtle the words the author uses and the reference points they provide, the bias shows clearly in the general direction and goals that the author tries to guide the reader towards .

In this case additionally the references seem to be biased towards books that were published a long time ago, as if old books are, by default, unsurpassable by current knowledge.

Thats often a common clue as to what type of evidence the author accepts, that is, evidence that supports by cherry picking the claim put foward.

How come there is no material on the site that he can find that opposes the viewpoint he holds?

As for the validity of the case itself, those findings that indicate that earlier texts of comparable or assimilated belief existed before even the OT was compiled in the hands of the particular tribe that is purported to "have the truth", probably do have some relevance on the cultural inheritance of that tribe (in this case the Jews).

In modern times christian teaching either ignores these findings, or tries to erroniously and clumsily fit the earlier writings into some sort of catagory that incorrectly considers them to be supportive.

This misses the point, and is an attempt to brainwash the convert into thinking the wrong way round when regarding the historically contextual implication of the discovery of earlier, similar, works .

Earlier religions and ancient writings that have what looks like simliarities to the early christian faith fall into catagories;

1/ Coincidently similar, as in a byproduct of the human brain that process the world view held, and arrives at a faith based on that. ie sungods (the sun is the common denominator), fear of death or some other common factor that humans share by experience.

2/ Inherited from an earlier culture, as in passed down to the current culture through imposition through invason, or inheritance, or contact with an culture that already holds the worldview through trading and interbreeding.

Of course if Christian-inanity had not pursued the ideology of its own originality and sacredness in particular, it would lose (or not gain so many) converts most likely, so to keep its own definition the meme has to defend itself by refutation based on any (biased) viewpoint it can use (and thats any viewpoint that humans can find) to outright deny, obscure and deflect what it considers a threat to its existance.

And there are real threats to the particular christian faith, and they will not go away.

Classic stuff really and very very common in the defence systems of religious mind viruses generally.....

As to whether the mythical Jesus was or was not pagan, that only is relevant within the mindset of the convert.
If one considers the existance of Jesus an irrelevant nonsense, then it is only seen as infighting between the deluded faithful.
Surely they have better things to do?..............maybe not.
 
The link you provided was interesting, however there is the usual reason behind the thinking employed by the author, namely, that the author is obviously christian.

At that point of recognition one is dealing with a biased viewpoint, the defence of the person's own faith.
Because of the nature of faith based enquiry, this has to be taken into account when reading it . Faith uses bias to support its own claims. It has to. Otherwise it suffers....(loses converts).

It is not an objective viewpoint, is it?

Now, tell me, how is it that you can expect an objective viewpoint in a debate such as this? That would assume, I think, that the bede site poster came across the problem as an anomaly in Christian philosophy, after having been raised with no religious background, and presumably no explicitly non-religious background either, and then invested the time to study it just for the love of debate. That's a pretty non-practical possibility, which I don't think anyone here can approach. I think you're going to have to settle for biased viewpoints in almost all debates, which is why so few ever change sides after "loosing" them. The point is that you can't expect purity in the arguments, but if you want to debate, you've got to counter the facts regardless of the motivations behind them, and expect failure of conversion afterwards.

However subtle the words the author uses and the reference points they provide, the bias shows clearly in the general direction and goals that the author tries to guide the reader towards .

In this case additionally the references seem to be biased towards books that were published a long time ago, as if old books are, by default, unsurpassable by current knowledge.

What old books have going for them is the term "tradition". Catholic philosophy regards tradition as a valid source of truth, since being uncontested by the church curia (the only valid contester) displays the acceptance of the text by God - in short, the fact that a book is unchallenged for a long time makes it truth - a conclusion that is encapsulated in the term "conservative".

Thats often a common clue as to what type of evidence the author accepts, that is, evidence that supports by cherry picking the claim put foward.

How come there is no material on the site that he can find that opposes the viewpoint he holds?

God doesn't debate himself, and neither does the church, at least in public. You seem to still be expecting someone with an unbiased viewpoint, but you're not going to find such here.

...

Of course if Christian-inanity ...

Classic stuff really and very very common in the defence systems of religious mind viruses generally.....

As to whether the mythical Jesus was or was not pagan, that only is relevant within the mindset of the convert.

...

Surely they have better things to do?..............maybe not.

Ummmmm, if you want to debate the subject, you can do that here. If you want to simply cast the "slings and arrows", you probably also can do that here, but you don't really do so representing an unbiased viewpoint yourself, now, do you? At least the author of the bede website doesn't seek to insult.

What you're doing here is grandstanding to the atheistic home crowd (of which, by the way, I am a member) and not really debating. I think there is plenty of pedagogical evidence that Catholics and, therefore, all the protestant sects as well, have borrowed from earlier traditions for their dogma, rituals, and philosophy. No need to Christian-bash to show that.

I enjoy a good Christian-bash now and then, just like most all here do, just as some enjoy an Sharpton-bash or a illegal aliens-bash or a good-natured Canadian-bash, but if you're going to accuse bede's author of bias, you better be careful with your own. You can't win over whatever rare truth-seekers may be lurking in that way. On the other hand, perhaps you're only here to bash, so you can drop all the bias rhetoric and have at it, but then I'd have to rate your bash as pretty weak.
 
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I'm not sure if you can really convince them by showing pagan roots, but you can probably make them double-take if you point out that the original Sabbath is on Saturday and get them to research why.
 
That Judaism looked like it evolved from earlier religions was a problem for theologists 1500 years ago. I jokingly suggest maybe the Devil did it, knowing what was coming, but that was actually proposed seriously a long time ago. :(


So, it could be:

A. "Echos" of things to come, i.e. naturally developing arguments that people latched onto, if half-assedly and blasphemously, until Yahweh actually bothered to open His mouth.

B. Devil pre-planted false religions and shaped them thru time so that it just looked like Judaism came from them.

C. God doesn't exist.



Where's the first rocket off this cluster-**** of a world?
 
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The link you provided was interesting, however there is the usual reason behind the thinking employed by the author, namely, that the author is obviously christian.

At that point of recognition one is dealing with a biased viewpoint, the defence of the person's own faith.
Because of the nature of faith based enquiry, this has to be taken into account when reading it . Faith uses bias to support its own claims. It has to. Otherwise it suffers....(loses converts).

You seem to be raising rather an ad hominem objection.

If there's something about the argument that strikes you as suffering from bias, identify it. This author doesn't rely on faith to make his points, and indeed his argument does not tend to establish the truth of the Christian religion. Professional historians are trained to adopt a methodologically neutral approach; not always successfully, to be sure, but you haven't actually identified anything in the article that clearly breaches this principle.


In this case additionally the references seem to be biased towards books that were published a long time ago, as if old books are, by default, unsurpassable by current knowledge.

Bear in mind that the author is critiquing a thesis for which, as Wikipedia rather charitably puts it, "modern scholarly discussion and support is very limited." The heyday of Jesus-myth "scholarship" was the late 19th and early 20th century, which is why contemporary arguments to that effect borrow from such sources as Frazer. Now, if by saying that "the references seem to be biased towards books that were published a long time ago", you are referring to the author's citation of several studies published in the 1960s, I think that's not surprising for the following reason: the Jesus-as-pagan-god-myth thesis had been pretty much shredded by a half-century ago, and rebutting it is, by and large, no longer a serious preoccupation in the academy.

Nothing in the essay suggests that the author believes that "old books are, by default, unsurpassable by current knowledge." You appear to be projecting, there.


How come there is no material on the site that he can find that opposes the viewpoint he holds?

One could be forgiven for suspecting that you didn't read the essay very carefully. Practically the entire essay is devoted to a discussion of material that opposes the author's viewpoint (most notably MacDonald and Frazer)!
 
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http://www.religioustolerance.org/virgin_b1.htm

Doesn't the virgin birth suggests Xianity borrowed a miracle?

For the reasons discussed in this thread and in this one, among others, it doesn't seem likely in that particular instance. As you know, we periodically delve into the underlying mythologies in this forum, and I think our experience has shown that just about every proposed antecedent parallel to the Christian virgin birth story seems, upon closer examination, either (1) not to furnish a particularly strong parallel, (2) not to have any verifiable pre-Christian existence, (3) not to provide any basis for supposing that it was known to early Christian communities, much less copied by their writers, or (4) some combination of the foregoing.
 
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(2) not to have any verifiable pre-Christian existence,...


I think I remember you saying this a few years ago - Are you claiming that Jesus was the first 'virgin' birth?

Didn't Origen refer to virgin birth stories as being 'ancient'?

And there is no absurdity in employing Grecian histories to answer Greeks, with the view of showing that we are not the only persons who have recourse to miraculous narratives of this kind. For some have thought fit, not in regard to ancient and heroic narratives, but in regard to events of very recent occurrence, to relate as a possible thing that Plato was the son of Amphictione, Ariston being prevented from having marital intercourse with his wife until she had given birth to him with whom she was pregnant by Apollo.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/origen161.html
 
The article in the OP states that the similarities in myths and the life of Jesus only exist because of radically shoehorning those myths and Jesus' myths into the same categories. The fact that someone else from a similar time is said to have a virgin birth doesn't mean that Jesus didn't (according to the argument), only that there happens to be a similarity between the two stories.

From the article:
For instance, the hero will typically have a miraculous conception or birth - but it's hardly legitimate to compare the story of the virgin birth recounted in the Gospels with, say, Zeus raping Leda in the form of a swan simply because both involve some sort of supernatural element. What such 'similarities' boil down to seems to be the earth-shattering revelation that supernatural things happen to supernatural figures, which is essentially a tautology.

The question, then, is not "Do similarities exist," because similarities exist between all people who rise to prominence. The question is "How similar are the stories."
 
I think I remember you saying this a few years ago - Are you claiming that Jesus was the first 'virgin' birth?

No; I don't have the comprehensive knowledge required to make that sort of claim. I would say that, to my recollection, none of the "candidates" for an antecedent virgin birth myth that have been brought to my attention on this forum or elsewhere have panned out.

On that point, I'll reiterate what I think are the fair criteria by which such "candidate myths" ought reasonably to be judged. In sum, I think it's fair to ask for evidence of each of the following points:

1. The myth corresponds to the basic, essential features of the Christian virgin birth story: a child (preferably a redeemer figure, I suppose) conceived by a divine father and a mortal mother who was a virgin at the time of the birth. Reducing the myth to anything vaguer than the foregoing raises problems about the meaningfulness of any parallels; someone having semi-divine parentage, being "not born of a man and woman" (Origen's phrase) or simply being born "in some manner different from the common" (Origen again) is simply too generic to be of use to the Jesus-as-pagan-myth thesis. I think the author of the essay linked in the OP makes a valid point when he writes:

To begin with, if one puts all the schemas that have been proposed together and looks for common elements, the results that emerge are often vague or unhelpful. For instance, the hero will typically have a miraculous conception or birth - but it's hardly legitimate to compare the story of the virgin birth recounted in the Gospels with, say, Zeus raping Leda in the form of a swan simply because both involve some sort of supernatural element. What such "similarities" boil down to seems to be the earth-shattering revelation that supernatural things happen to supernatural figures, which is essentially a tautology.


2. The myth pre-existed the gospels of Matthew and Luke or their direct sources.

3. The myth would have been known to the Matthew and Luke writers or their direct sources.

I'm tempted to add that there ought ideally to be some further evidence to rule out the possibility of coincidental and independent creation of the Christian virgin birth story, but we can consider the justification for that addition in the event that any alleged pagan antecedent can be shown to satisfy points 1 through 3 above.



Didn't Origen refer to virgin birth stories as being 'ancient'?

It would seem that Origen, in the chapter to which you're referring, is speaking of ancient miraculous birth narratives - i.e. in which the protagonist is, as Origen puts it, "born in some manner different from the common" - rather than stories of virgin births as such. As far as I can tell from this, neither Origen nor (based on Origen's summary of Celsus' arguments) Celsus is aware of a good parallel for the Christian virgin birth; at the very least, if they had known, it would have served their rhetorical purposes to mention it.

Origen gives the example of Plato's legendary birth (he acknowledges it's not especially ancient in his day). According to that story, Amphictione was impregnated by Apollo (or some other supernatural entity disguised as Apollo, depending on the account). Yet, so far as I know, the legend doesn't suggest that Amphictione got pregnant via the usual mechanism (she had actual sexual intercourse with the god). At any rate, she was not a virgin, having already given birth to Plato's older siblings.

Origen mentions that Celsus compares the Jesus birth narrative to Greek fables about Danae, Melanippe, Auge and Antiope. However, there too, I see no indication that Celsus was suggesting that they concerned virgin births specifically - merely extraordinary or divine ones. Indeed, there would appear to be no reason for Celsus to have taken the position that those myths present strong parallels to the Christian virgin birth because, to my knowledge, they don't. Either they don't involve mortal women, or the women had sexual intercourse prior to and/or in connection with the conception in question, etc.
 
Problem with getting hung up about the "virgin birth" as being somehow unique - there is no virgin birth account in the Bible. In the Bible Mary is impregnated by a supernatural creature - just like many other mythological women:

Matthew:

1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Like the other mythologies the woman then gives birth to child which inherits some of the supernatural abilities of its father.
 
Problem with getting hung up about the "virgin birth" as being somehow unique - there is no virgin birth account in the Bible. In the Bible Mary is impregnated by a supernatural creature - just like many other mythological women:

Matthew:

1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
1:19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Like the other mythologies the woman then gives birth to child which inherits some of the supernatural abilities of its father.
There is a decent argument against the virgin birth using biblical texts, but I don't think using a 17th century translation of "pneuma" as ghost is giving an accurate picture of what Matthew was writing. To my knowledge, at the time of the KJB translation, "ghost" had a different connotation to how we would use the word today, which is why modern translations use the word "spirit". Literally pneuma means "breath".
 
Yet, so far as I know, the legend doesn't suggest that Amphictione got pregnant via the usual mechanism (she had actual sexual intercourse with the god).

Erratum: I meant to write that the legend does suggest that Amphictione had sexual intercourse with Plato's father. Somehow I ended up writing the opposite.
 
There is a decent argument against the virgin birth using biblical texts, but I don't think using a 17th century translation of "pneuma" as ghost is giving an accurate picture of what Matthew was writing. To my knowledge, at the time of the KJB translation, "ghost" had a different connotation to how we would use the word today, which is why modern translations use the word "spirit". Literally pneuma means "breath".

How exactly do you argue against the virgin birth from the Bible?
 
How exactly do you argue against the virgin birth from the Bible?
The argument goes something like this...

It's not mentioned anywhere else in the Bible other than in Matthew's and Luke's Gospels. Whilst not proof of anything, it is noteworthy that something so significant isn't mentioned by Mark or in any of Paul's letters (written before Matthew).

Matthew, who appears to be either using Mark's gospel or a source common to both of them, deviates here from Mark and includes the birth story, pointing out the fulfilment of a prophecy from Isaiah 7:14 : Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. NIV.

Aside from the argument that the prophecy is taken out of context, the problem comes with the original Hebrew word which has been translated as "virgin". "Almah", when used in other places is just referring to a "young woman" not specifically a virgin. If Matthew was reading from a Greek translation of Isaiah, the word "parthenos" was used as the translation, which does carry the "virgin" connotation. The suggestion is that Matthew tried to match the nativity story to an incorrect translation of Isaiah.

It's also worth noting the emphasis put on Joseph's lineage back to King David. If Joseph is not the father, why should his lineage matter? Again, Matthew is trying to link to prophecy. The saviour was to be born from David's lineage, but unless we follow Mary's line (which some people claim does go back to David), either Jesus is not from David's line or not born of a virgin. He can't be both.

The Gospel of John, written later, does not include the story of the virgin birth, and in 1:45 has Jesus referred to as the son of Joseph.
 

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