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Jailhouse Logic, or "Macco's Razor"

Suddenly

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One of the more interesting parts of my occupation is when I get a new file and get to go to the prison and meet a new smiling face. Some of the cases I get are where an inmate is petitioning for a Writ of Habeas Corpus, a legal fiction the upshot of which is that the prisoner is arguing that he (Clients trend 99% male) is being held illegally, as his trial had constitutional error.

These things generally start with a skeleton petition, where the prisoner lays out his case. If the judge thinks there is any merit to the claim, counsel is appointed to handle the claim. Usually this sort of thing takes several tries. Often the case ends up in my hands after a prisoner has filed 6 or 7 of these petitions over on average 10 years. So it has been a while since the trial and the events leading up to the trial.

My point? The disconnect between what these clients believe happened at trial vs. what the transcripts, orders, and correspondence say. Sometimes it is amazing. At first the inclination by the attorney is to believe that the client is flat lying, and badly at that. Some examples.

-Client pleads guilty. Sentenced to 40 years. Claims up and down there is a binding deal to no more than 20. There are transcripts, letters, pleadings and even a signed agreement that the prosecutor would recommend 40 years, which is not even binding, as the offense in question has no maximum term.

-Client says nobody has yet, in the 25 years he's been in jail, given him a copy of the transcript of the trial. Attorney goes to the courthouse, has the transcript copied from the file and hands it to client. Client goes into a blind rage, screaming that the attorney "is in on it too" because this is another doctored transcript.

-Client claims that person X would have delivered testimony that would prove his innocence. Person X, when asked, says client is nuts, and that he doesn't doubt for a second client is guilty.


I could go on, but the point is that these people are speaking contrary to established reality. The rookie mistake for a lawyer is to go in, guns blazing and accuse the client of lying. This is wrong as even if the client is lying, what makes you think he will admit it? This is a good way to make a mess out of the case and poison all future attempts at communication. In my experience most of these people are not "lying" in that they are being willfully untruthful. They actually tend to believe what they claim. This led me to the following theory.

One of the bedrock concepts in epistemology is "Occam's Razor", which in general holds that one should accept as true only the simplest valid explaination for a collection of data.

Thus, if the prisoners above used this principle, when confronted with the choice between mistaken memory, and a statewide conspiracy to hide the truth and keep them wrongfully in jail, would chose the former as it is simpler, and fully explains the difference between belief and evidence.

However, this is not what happens. What happens is "Macco's Razor" is applied. This holds that one should accept as true only the explaination for a set of data that leads to relief from confinement. Thus the conspracy is taken as true.

It occurs to me that this will happen any time there is a profound emotional investment in a particular outcome. The person honestly believes the facts according to utility, rather than reality.

So, how do you go about telling such a person that the path they want to follow, proving the existence of the conspiracy, is not in their best interests and an argument using the facts they contest is the better approach?

I've always followed the same approach. I tell the client that I am not concerned with the truth of the matter, rather I am only concerned with what I can prove by evidence. I think it important to remove the issue of credibility from the equation at the begining, without professing belief in the clients delusions. The latter is both for ethical reasons (don't want to lie to a client) and just in case the client is a manipulative liar he will understand that he does not have emotional control over you. When a client pleads with me that it is important for me to believe him, I respond by stating that I am assigned to do the best job I can to represent him, and that forming a belief that he is right will not allow me to do what I need to do, that is objectively look at the reality of the situation and give him what I believe to be in my expert opinion the best chance of getting out (Not always in those words, I tailor my comments to the clients educational level). I then get him to agree that his having the best chance to get out is the most important thing.

Thus I create a sort of a necessary fiction in which the client and I can discuss actual provable events rather than wild theories. I do some basic investigation and show why I can't prove the conspiracy, and we then move on to what is reality for me and a necessary fiction for the client, without confrontation about his veracity or epistemological shortcomings.

Just something I was thinking about regarding my visit to the pen tomorrow. Any comments or ideas? I'm trying to develop a coherent reasoning behind the many encounters with absurdity I have.
 
Suddenly said:
Just something I was thinking about regarding my visit to the pen tomorrow. Any comments or ideas? I'm trying to develop a coherent reasoning behind the many encounters with absurdity I have.
This is an easy one...

"I dont like being in prison, its a pain in the bum *snickers*, I'll do and say anything to get out". That will be your motivation about 90% (I'm just pulling numbers out of the air) of the time.


Honestly, I dont know what I would do in your situation. I do happen to like your entirely realistic, conspiracy-free, and honest approach to working with these guys (and good on you for ignoring the emotional appeal, it is often empty and shallow, fueled only by selfish desires of "GET ME OUT, MY BUM IS KILLING ME!").
 
I can't think of much to to add to what seems to be a pretty good plan, already..

I know it's kind of trite, but I have this vision of you slapping a big file folder or briefcase and saying something like:

" O.K., man.. The truth is in here somewhere and together we are going to find it, one way or another. And you know what they say about the truth.. It will set you free! " (note: you haven't stated specific belief or agreed to anything )

No?
 
Many people seem to reason that way. They take a conclusion (i.e. I shouldn't be in prison) and then work back and figure out all the things that would have to be different for their conclusion to be true.

I have no experience with convicted felons, so I can't really speak to that, but I find you often see the same reasoning in people who believe in things like the lunar landings being hoaxed, JFK being assassinated by the Illuminati, or what have you. I think it's a form of mental self defense... I can't accept A, so A can't be true whatever it takes to get there.

To bring it back the legal arena, I suspect this is the same sort of reason why people who have their crimes videotaped and dozens of witnesses will still swear they didn't do it. The consequences of them having done it are too great, so therefore all the witnesses must be lying and the videotape forged and everyone must be in on a conspiracy, cause the alternative is too horrible to accept for them.

There's my attempt at pop psychology. :D
 
Diogenes said:
I can't think of much to to add to what seems to be a pretty good plan, already..

I know it's kind of trite, but I have this vision of you slapping a big file folder or briefcase and saying something like:

" O.K., man.. The truth is in here somewhere and together we are going to find it, one way or another. And you know what they say about the truth.. It will set you free! " (note: you haven't stated specific belief or agreed to anything )

No?

I'd never say that the truth will set them free, as I suspect on some level the one thing they really don't want is the truth. Plus you learn real quick to never go anywhere near making any sort of what could possibly in hindsight after a fashion be construed as some sort of guarantee.

More like slapping down a big folder and saying: "I know that you feel like your being screwed by the system. I'm not here to boost your morale or tell you how smart you are. What I am here to do is give you the best chance at getting what you want, which I'm sure you will agree is the best chance at getting the f*ck out of this place as soon as possible. I'm not one of those p*ssy lawyers that tell you what they think you want to hear. I know what I'm doing. I'll discuss and explain things to you until you understand, and I'll answer your questions, but I'm not here to do your bidding or to get back at those b*st*rds that put you in here. I'm here to try to get your a$$ out of this place."

Something like that. Except maybe with more swearing.
 
Aoidoi said:
Many people seem to reason that way. They take a conclusion (i.e. I shouldn't be in prison) and then work back and figure out all the things that would have to be different for their conclusion to be true.

I have no experience with convicted felons, so I can't really speak to that, but I find you often see the same reasoning in people who believe in things like the lunar landings being hoaxed, JFK being assassinated by the Illuminati, or what have you. I think it's a form of mental self defense... I can't accept A, so A can't be true whatever it takes to get there.

To bring it back the legal arena, I suspect this is the same sort of reason why people who have their crimes videotaped and dozens of witnesses will still swear they didn't do it. The consequences of them having done it are too great, so therefore all the witnesses must be lying and the videotape forged and everyone must be in on a conspiracy, cause the alternative is too horrible to accept for them.

There's my attempt at pop psychology. :D

Yeah. Videotapes. Good Grief. "I was drugged" is popular. As is the old standby "wasn't me."

One other fact that seems to lend itself to the "pop psychology" you suggest, and that I agree with, is the fact that in my experience the worse the crime the more likely a person is to be absolutely fixed on some weird theory.

One guy, a rather nasty child molester, I was never able to really communicate well with, as he would tangent into weird arguments whenever he even began to feel uncomfortable, had the bright idea, as many do, of making some trophy photos of his sordid activities. He would alternate between "that wasn't me" and "See, she is holding money. I paid her, so it was legal" (She was 11). Just some weird ◊◊◊◊. I never could get him focused on anything, he just wanted to rant about those people that lied about him and wanted him out of the way.

It gives me a good idea of the hopelessness of arguing with people that for one reason or another cannot emotionally afford to be wrong. The worse the price, the greater the defense. The thing that really bothers me is that it seems quite insidious. The person exhibiting the symptoms is unlikely to notice their own faulty reasoning. I hope I'm not like that about anything, but I suspect I am. I know I have been in the past.
 
Many prisoner suits are totally bogus. Prisoners file them as a kind of sport.

Occasionally, however, there is one that is meritorious. I learned of one in which several prisoners sued because of the way in which they were returned to prison after they escaped. Their complaint was that the individual transporting them back to the pokey (a private contractor for the government) nearly killed them in the process. It turned out that the allegations were true, because the van used by the individual in question leaked exhaust into the prisoners' secure compartment. The carbon dioxide made the prisoners sick, and it could have killed them.

The state attorney general actually was on the prisoners' side.

Each affected prisoner received a small fortune: $100 each, if I remember correctly.
 
This reminds me of a wonderful scene in "The Shawshank Redemption," the one where Andy learns that everyone else in prison is innocent too (except "Red").

"Didn't do it."
 
The problem is, of course, that there are innocent people, or people who's trials were inept. There is that group that has been going over the trials of people on death row and finding valid, legal doubts over many convictions.

However as you say, there are more who just can't face up to reality. A much more common one would be "We should be together because....". Human nature.
 
A friend of mine from Army days became a prison guard after he left the army.....not quite sure if thats going up or down in the world.

He always said that people in prison were roughly divided into three groups. The bad, the sad and the mad. The Bad third were the ones who should be there, the sad were there because they were plain stupid, destitute, drug addicted or a combination of these factors. The last third were in prison because the mental health system did not have the resources to deal with them, their bizzare behaviour gets them before the courts and prison
becomes a defacto mental hospital.

A classic example was the old guy where I once lived who, during his manic spells, would wander the streets naked pissing on parked cars, he would spit on anybody who attempted to go near him....quite mad, During his lucid periods he would sit quietly in the park...He is now in prison for "assault police" yea, whatever.....He is over 60 and weighs about 90 pounds...I bet he gave the police a real beating...... he should be helped, not imprisoned to remove an embarassment from the local park. Why imprison people for being sick???
 
I have heard this too. Most people in prison shouldn't be there. I was once on a jury for an assault case. We found the guy guilty. I saw the tipstaff on the train months later, and asked him about the case. He asked me if we knew the guy was schizophrenic. Well, of course we didn't, no one told us.
 
Extremely interesting proposal, Sud, and a lot more widely applicable than just the prison situation. In fact, it is pretty much at the heart of woo-wooism.

If a person has an overriding interest in a particular outcome, then the validity of evidence is passed through an "outcome filter" which removes anything that does not lead to that outcome. We see a number of people on these boards who will flatly deny physics, mathmatics or any other well proven dicipline in order to cling to their crackpot theories. You see proponants of creationism and intelligent design doing this all the time by focussing on some perceived weakness in the theory of evolution while ignoring the vast volumes of support for it.

It must be tough to work in a job where you must deal with this on a daily basis. Whatever they're paying you, it ain't enough. (BTW, who is Macco?)
AUP said:
Most people in prison shouldn't be there.
Indeed, but it is cheaper to build prisons than hospitals. Psychiatrists generally demand larger saleries than prison guards. Compounding the problem is the fact that much of the public really doesn't care what happens to mentally ill people. They just want them gone.
 
Suddenly said:

One guy, a rather nasty child molester, I was never able to really communicate well with
I gotta ask.

I know you are (legally? ethically?) bound to do everything you can for a guy like this, but have you been confronted by someone who did something so heinous, so awful, that you give (or want to give) less than 100%? In those cases, how do you force yourself to try to get these creeps out?
 
Upchurch said:
I gotta ask.

I know you are (legally? ethically?) bound to do everything you can for a guy like this, but have you been confronted by someone who did something so heinous, so awful, that you give (or want to give) less than 100%? In those cases, how do you force yourself to try to get these creeps out?

Usually the case is hopeless, so it really isn't an issue.

Past that, there is the fact that arbitrary government has killed more people and ruined more lives than all common criminals put together. What I'm engaged in is not so much helping scum (and the occasional actual innocent) as it is holding the line on a distant front against arbitrary government. When faced with the choice of following the rule of law, or being arbitrary "just this once" because the bad guy is really, really bad is seems a tough choice in most respects. I believe that the value of the rule of law superceeds any short term benefit gained by ignoring same.

Anytime a person holds a set of beliefs (here the rule of law) and acts outside that belief for some reason (don't like someone) that person's conduct is no longer controlled by the set of beliefs, and is now more centrally controlled by the reason for the diversion. Once we suspend the rule becuase we "really don't like this guy" we make a new standard, and we are going to be in trouble when "don't like" gets out of control.

Or as a professor of mine would put it "don't burn down the barn to roast a pig." He also said "Don't eat your seed corn."

In other words, the sacrifice of long held instituions like the rule of law and respect for the constitution are in the long run far more dangerous than whatever nasty things any one person can do.
 
Just something I was thinking about regarding my visit to the pen tomorrow. Any comments or ideas? I'm trying to develop a coherent reasoning behind the many encounters with absurdity I have.
As an officer of the court you are bound to follow the line of reasoning upon which our system of justice is based.

To quote Sir Thomas Moore:

" The world may construe according to it's wits. This court must construe according to the law."

It matters not at all what you think...it only matters what you can prove. Once you have clearly conveyed this to the client, your duty is fulfilled regardless of how the client accepts it. All the rest is commentary.
 
Suddenly said:
It gives me a good idea of the hopelessness of arguing with people that for one reason or another cannot emotionally afford to be wrong. The worse the price, the greater the defense. The thing that really bothers me is that it seems quite insidious. The person exhibiting the symptoms is unlikely to notice their own faulty reasoning. I hope I'm not like that about anything, but I suspect I am. I know I have been in the past.
My friend, I think you are the only one here in these forums that is not like that.
 
My brother worked as a corrections officer for a time. It was his opinion that there were no guilty people in prison and the law helped these people's argument. Whenever a person was picked up on suspicion of a crime they were sat down and told..

"We know you did this and that. And we know you probably did that and this. You are facing serious time unless you plead guilty to all of this and that and we can give you a break." Old crimes get cleaned up, the bad guy does some time but usually very little and he can honestly say he was innocent of some of the charges.

A few years ago a friend informed me that certain drugs were no longer illegal. I was surprised to hear that because I had seen nothing in the news. He told me that his friend got nailed by the cops for whatever and the cops found the illegal drug on him. Instead of charging him for possession they threw the stash down a sewer and cut him a break. Buddy says if he gets caught with any of that drug now, he walks because of precedence.

Long story short...buddy gets caught trying to sell to an undercover cop and goes to jail dispite his protestations. End result? Buddy is in jail because the cops played dirty, not because he was trafficing. So sad!

With this particular person, nothing has ever been his fault. He could not even admit to doing something as inane as tripping over his own feet without blaming someone else, the sidewalk guy, the guy who made his shoes, the guy who made his socks and on and on.....
 
Just got back from the Maximum Security House of No Fun.

Surreal even as these trips go. From the papers it appears the client was a real hard a$$. Brutal crime, to which he admitted but he has a beef about sentencing. His writings are quite bombastic and forceful as to bad things he says happened. He says the records show facts A, B, and C. In fact , the records are pretty clear about not A, not B, and most definately not C. Rarely have I seen an opinon more disconnected from reality. I'm a little worried he's a violent lunatic. What a life I lead.

I get to the prison, and I'm not lead to the normal visitation area. Nope, I'm off to Admin-Seg, the, as the guard puts it "prison's prison." Great. On the way over the guard looks at me and askes if I have ever seen this guy before. I say no. He grins at me in a way I'm not sure is a good way. They lead him in, he's in leg and arm chains, which you don't see in most of the prison.

I'm thinking, OK, this is going to be interesting. This guy did something to someone to wind up here, and now I've got to explain to him how wrong he is about everything. I'm glad I have a pen.

Turns out he is a total puppydog. Friendly and helpful. He is in the Ad Seg because he wants his own cell.

His factual disconnect is neither a willful lie nor is it macco's razor. He appeared to honestly think you were supposed to lie in legal filings. We talk and it turns out that after we get past A, B, and C, the lack of foundation for which he easily accepts, there is another fact, D, obscured by his bombast for A, B, and C in his papers, that reveals the possiblity that he may have a case for an adjustment in sentence.

I was prepared for the unexpected, and that was exactly what I got.
 

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