Israel poisoned Arafat?

TillEulenspiegel

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Are the Palestinian people once again going to sabotage a rare moment that could provide them with a chance for Statehood and peace?

All because of some stupid rumor? When his French ( no friend of Israel) doctors categorically deny poison as a cause of death?

Damn it , it reminders me of Brownian motion, chaos without purpose eternally in a state of flux.

Jeeze.
 
"Are the Palestinian people once again going to sabotage a rare moment that could provide them with a chance for Statehood and peace?"

Once again?

Are you sure Israel and the US have any intention of giving the Palestinians a viable state? Why do you think gaining Statehood is in the hands of the Palestinians at all?
 
demon said:
"Are the Palestinian people once again going to sabotage a rare moment that could provide them with a chance for Statehood and peace?"

Once again?

Are you sure Israel and the US have any intention of giving the Palestinians a viable state? Why do you think gaining Statehood is in the hands of the Palestinians at all?

Sure they do, they want there to be people responsible for things and not a struggle.
 
Kevin Lowe will be posting reasonable papers soon written by palestinians that show that he could have poisoned even though they haven't found the "smoking gun".

Despite the testimony of doctors and experts on the subject matter, he will rely on the rumors spread by bloggers who haven't the faintest on how poisons work.

Then he will claim we are partisans for making fun of him.
 
I'm sorry demon but I will have to leave the question of failed opportunities to more vocal "Historians" and the usual gang of idiots.

I remember the burial speech of a granddaughter who grieved for the man ( Rabin as I did ) and not the political entity. Had that opportunity at Washington under Clinton been accomplished our discussion might be moot.
Arafat declined even tho the final question of Jerusalem was left open for later debate. The forces of history took control as the assinated PM was replaced by a secession of more and more hard line Pm's. Netanyahu, Burak and Sharon. I don't want to be entangled by a deluge of this history VS that history, but I think the case is clear.
 
TillEulenspiegel said:
Are the Palestinian people once again going to sabotage a rare moment that could provide them with a chance for Statehood and peace?

Well of course they will silly. Not only that, but they (and let's not forget the rest of the wonderful Arab world) will blame the Israelies for the death of Arafat (which we are seeing) anyway, and anyhow they can, that way they can keep fueling their apparent (at least to people who are alive, breathing, human, and have a normal brain) hatred for the Jews....because we all know, that it's always the Jews' fault, and they just simply need to be eliminated.



There...now I feel better.

edited to add:

Open opinion and not personally directed at you Till....
 
TillEulenspiegel:
"I'm sorry demon but I will have to leave the question of failed opportunities to more vocal "Historians" and the usual gang of idiots."

Fair enough.
However, I think it is only fair make sure the myth of Israel`s "Generous Offer" at Camp David is always exposed when it might be rearing it`s ugly head again. It has become such a part of the zionist propaganda narrative.
In light of this I offer the following article:

quote:
The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations
By Seth Ackerman

The seemingly endless volleys of attack and retaliation in the Middle East leave many people wondering why the two sides can't reach an agreement. The answer is simple, according to numerous commentators: At the Camp David meeting in July 2000, Israel "offered extraordinary concessions" (Michael Kelly, Washington Post, 3/13/02), "far-reaching concessions" (Boston Globe, 12/30/01), "unprecedented concessions" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). Israel’s "generous peace terms" (L.A. Times editorial, 3/15/02) constituted "the most far-reaching offer ever" (Chicago Tribune editorial, 6/6/01) to create a Palestinian state. In short, Camp David was "an unprecedented concession" to the Palestinians (Time, 12/25/00).

But due to "Arafat's recalcitrance" (L.A. Times editorial, 4/9/02) and "Palestinian rejectionism" (Mortimer Zuckerman, U.S. News & World Report, 3/22/02), "Arafat walked away from generous Israeli peacemaking proposals without even making a counteroffer" (Salon.com 3/8/01). Yes, Arafat "walked away without making a counteroffer" (Samuel G. Freedman, USA Today, 6/18/01). Israel "offered peace terms more generous than ever before and Arafat did not even make a counteroffer" (Chicago Sun-Times editorial, 11/10/00). In case the point isn‘t clear: "At Camp David, Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians an astonishingly generous peace with dignity and statehood. Arafat not only turned it down, he refused to make a counteroffer!" (Charles Krauthammer, Seattle Times, 10/16/00).

This account is one of the most tenacious myths of the conflict. Its implications are obvious: There is nothing Israel can do to make peace with its Palestinian neighbors. The Israeli army’s increasingly deadly attacks, in this version, can be seen purely as self-defense against Palestinian aggression that is motivated by little more than blind hatred.

Locking in occupation

To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department).

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region’s scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new “independent state” would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called “bypass roads” that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel...

continued at http://www.fair.org/extra/0207/generous.html
 
Demon :"However, I think it is only fair make sure the myth of Israel`s "Generous Offer" at Camp Davis"

The problem is that there was a sliding scale ( that has worsened) not from the Camp david accords , but the

<snip>Clinton, Rabin, Arafat at the White House 9/13/93 signed an agreement for the autonomy of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, fulfilling the peace process started by the Madrid Treaty in 1991, and bringing to an end the "intifada"or mass uprising of Palestinians that had cost the lives of thousands since 1987.
<snip>
The acceptance or denial of the agreement is based on perception. I stand however that ATT and even now that would have been a better fate for the Palestinian people then the successive offers from Israel.
 
TillEulenspiegel:
"Clinton, Rabin, Arafat at the White House 9/13/93 signed an agreement for the autonomy of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, fulfilling the peace process started by the Madrid Treaty in 1991, and bringing to an end the "intifada"or mass uprising of Palestinians that had cost the lives of thousands since 1987.

The acceptance or denial of the agreement is based on perception. I stand however that ATT and even now that would have been a better fate for the Palestinian people then the successive offers from Israel."


I think it is possible to do better than "perception"...I think we can bring a little objectivity to the issue actually.

Let`s talk about "good faith" in the proceedings at Oslo.
Given Barak's and Netanyahu's and Sharon's active support of the insertion of an extra 300,000 Israelis into the West Bank when the Oslo process was at its height, it is suprising Palestinians were/are still prepared to negotiate at all.
There were, after all, several years of restraint and good faith by the Palestinians which we can contrast to the biggest and most disgraceful betrayal by Israel. This, of course has been the way with the Israeli state since it`s inception. It simply will not negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians. The record is clear - except with Zionists, who continue to believe in their uprightness and continue against most of the evidence to blame the Palestinians for lack of good faith when they know that they are truly the ones not to act in good faith.

The one point where it needed both sides to show honour Arafat managed it with the slimmest of resources - and he did it for seven long years. Both wings of the political spectrum under Netanyahu, Barak and Sharon financed and oversaw the incursion of hundreds of thousands of occupiers who destroyed the agreement on the ground.
Since when was it Arafat`s job to provide security to the Israelis, when the goals of Israeli Prime Ministers and Generals have been to occupy and dismantle and destroy the Palestinians?

The fact remains that for as long as the US remains the underwriter of Israel and its imperial policies, Palestine is lost the moment it gives up the struggle and that of course is what Zionists, Likudniks, and their varioius sympathisers want.
 
demon
But don't you see that over time the aspirations of the Palestinian people have be thwarted by their own intransigence?

You still argue from a perspective of the days that occurred 6 years after the Clinton sponsored agreement. The conditions have become increasingly less accommodating, what would You propose?

edit to add:
Don't think that because I point out the failures of the Palestinian people that I think the Israeli government and people aren't worthy of condemnation. I believe that the state of Israel has become increasingly bellicose and that they are rapidly becoming the thing they hate the most. Because they are. They also have less of an excuse for this behavior then the Palestinians because they democratically elected Sharon as PM which we cannot say about Arafat.
 
TillEulenspiegel:
"Don't think that because I point out the failures of the Palestinian people that I think the Israeli government and people aren't worthy of condemnation..."

No problem, I wasn`t thinking that.

"what would You propose?"

Of course, the proposals I set out here don`t have a cat in hells chance of coming about but since you asked...

For a start:
End the illegal and immoral military occupation.
Dismantle the illegal settlements.
Observe the borders, not those of Greater Israel.

The UN has passed scores and scores of resolutions Israel has ignored, or got their exceptional good friend America to veto. Masses and masses of them. Requesting observance of UN resolutions would be a good start, and something that can be reasonably and coherently demanded from the grass-roots.

The solutuon lies with the US if they had the will, this is probabaly the most significant point as far as I`m concerned.

As for Arafat, he certainly had enriched himself at the expense of the Palestinians, but now he is gone it is the Palestinians who should decide who is their leader (elections within 60 days I believe), or if we are going to engineer the next leader then the same can be said about Sharon who is untrustworthy, possibly corrupt, and a complicit war criminal. Lets replace him with someone who is interested in peace and capable of dealing with the IDF and the Israeli Settler/terrorists.

A few other suggestions:

1)A UN peacekeeping force enters to patrol the 1967 borders

2)Prisoners held without trial unconditionally released. Those convicted moved closer to their families in the occupied territories under Palestinian jurisdiction, with the right of appeal for those protesting innocence. Amnesty for those whose actions didn;t violate the Geneva convention.

3)Israel to immediately release Conscientious objectors it has jailed.

4)International task force to investigate war crimes on both sides, with a mandate to bring those responsible to justice.

Those are my modest proposals but in all honesty, I think the window for a two state solution has opened and closed and you have Sharon and his settlement building policy (and Barak, the Israeli dove), to thank for that. A meaningful Palestinian state is probably impossible to achieve now.
 
demon said:
End the illegal and immoral military occupation.
Great idea Demon. Who exactly will be negotiating on behalf of the Palestinian people to end the occupation? Hamas? Islamic Jihad? Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades? The Palestinian Authority? Who has the political capital to represent all Palestinians?

We already know - after several peace treaties - that the Palestinian Authority doesn't have the political capital to stop Hamas, Islamic Jihad or the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades from attacking Israel nor after ten years have they been able to "close the deal". So will Hamas step up to the plate and stop Islamic Jihad and the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades from attacking Israel while building the institutions needed in order to run a country? How about Islamic Jihad? Will they step up to the plate and stop the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and Hamas from attacking Israel while building the institutions needed in order to run a country?

Who exactly speaks for the Palestinian people in order to negotiate an end to occupation Demon?
demon said:
Dismantle the illegal settlements.
Already underway unilaterally. See: Israel's Disengagment Plan

demon said:
Observe the borders, not those of Greater Israel.
Oh, you means the borders based upon the 1949 armistice agreements Israel signed with Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Transjordan? AKA The Green line. Or a variation on those borders to accomodate population growth on both sides? Who exactly will be negotiating on behalf of the Palestinian people to finalize and observe those borders Demon? Hamas? Islamic Jihad? Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades? The Palestinian Authority?

demon said:
The UN has passed scores and scores of resolutions Israel has ignored, or got their exceptional good friend America to veto. Masses and masses of them. Requesting observance of UN resolutions would be a good start, and something that can be reasonably and coherently demanded from the grass-roots.
29 November 1947 - United Nations A/RES/181(II)(A+B)
Independent Arab and Jewish States and the Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem, set forth in part III of this plan, shall come into existence in Palestine two months after the evacuation of the armed forces of the mandatory Power has been completed but in any case not later than 1 October 1948.
What happened?
May 14, 1948 - the invasion by the regular forces of Egypt, Lebanon, Iraq, and Syria. link
So much for observing UN resolutions. But feel free to use them in your defence Demon.

Anyhow...I must run...
 

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