Israel: Democracy in action.

Cleopatra

Philosopher
C
Joined
Mar 15, 2003
Messages
9,079
How difficult is for a democracy to function in war time? I think that it's really difficult especially when we are not talking about war with the classic definition of the word but about suicide bombings that target civilians.

It seems though that Israel makes a sincere effort to balance between democracy and its need for security.

I am quite surprized that none started a thread on this matter yet-- davefoc attempted to start a discussion in SC on the topic.

On June 30 2004, the Israeli Supreme Court ordered changes to the route of the West Bank security fence, to alleviate Palestinian suffering even if this will mean less security for Israel.

I have just acquired a full copy of the Supreme Court's decision that I can upload to my webspace although it is in word format and nothing proves that it's this document indeed.

Extracts of the decision can be found in the official site of the Israeli Government here.

The court's decision with which IDF ( which is the responsible authority for the supervision of the security fence) complied immediately proves that the motives of constructing the security fence are not political as many of the critics of Israel have suggested.

Mohammed Dahla, one of the lawyers representing the Palestinians, hailed what he called a "courageous and very important" decision.

"This decision is more important than the one at The Hague because this one will be followed," he said outside the court.

Story--CNN
The Guardian
 
How dare you deny foreign spies the right to blow themselves up on a public bus, or your citizens to be attacked by AK47-wielding suicide squads while they sleep in the dark of night.
 
From Arutz ShivaThe refugees have been living in UN-maintained refugee camps since the creation of the State of Israel. Efforts by Israel to upgrade their status have often been foiled by the Arab countries. The PA committee feels that to grant them democratic rights would water down their status as "testimony" to the Israeli "crimes."
Click to expand...

From time to time I get accused of being racist against Palestinian-Arabs for pointing out things like this, that it's their own leadership that is primarily responsible for their suffering, that those who should be advocating their cause are instead using them as pawns. The sad truth is a really strong case could be made that those most concerned with their wellbeing are the Israelis.
 
What bothers me most is that although I spent the whole afternoon trying to trace other sources than Arutz Shiva and IMRA I realized that nobody else seems to bother about this issue.

I will be following it to see if the western media will report about it and how.
 
Cleopatra said:
What bothers me most is that although I spent the whole afternoon trying to trace other sources than Arutz Shiva and IMRA I realized that nobody else seems to bother about this issue.

I will be following it to see if the western media will report about it and how.
Click to expand...

American replied, but you seem to have ignored him.
 
A country can be democratic while still engaging in all kinds of terrible actions. The Israeli government is no exception.

The Israeli government treats the Palestinians like animals. Extremist Palestinian groups ruthlessly slaughter innocent Israeli citizens. It amazes me that people are blind to the fact that neither side has its hands clean in this conflict. In the end, it is the general population of each country that suffers.
 
The Israeli government treats the Palestinians like animals. Extremist Palestinian groups ruthlessly slaughter innocent Israeli citizens.

That might be part of the reason they are "treated like animals."
 
It was reported last week on the BBC I think.
In any case, a judicial court ruling against a small section of the Wall being held up as evidence that Israel is fair and balanced... yeah, right- tell that to the families whose lifes and livelihoods have already been wrecked by it. Will the other sections of the land grabbing wall be rerouted? We`ll see.

As for the IDF comlying or not, it's been difficult to keep up with the varied and parallel activities of them in the past few days. Googling for news reveals missile strikes in scattered sites over the West Bank, Jerusalem and Gaza over the weekend, leaving several dead and Al-Jazeera counting 22 dead Palestinians just since Thursday.
 
Googling for news reveals missile strikes in scattered sites over the West Bank, Jerusalem and Gaza over the weekend, leaving several dead and Al-Jazeera counting 22 dead Palestinians just since Thursday.

Well, missile strikes, experience shows, usually mean they're aiming at one of the leaders of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades, etc. Did your news source mention how many of those the missile strikes got?
 
digitalmcq said:
A country can be democratic while still engaging in all kinds of terrible actions. The Israeli government is no exception.
Click to expand...

In my opening post I did not suggest that Israel is the cornerstone of democracy in the western world. Only some days ago I posted that even in the most advanced democracies human rights are violated.

In the prisons and in the police stations of western countries occur incidents that israelis don't even imagine and yet it's Israel that is in war not those countries.

I didn't see any comments though about the decision of the Palestinian Supreme National Committee for the Protection of the Right of Return to deny the right of voting in the Palestinians that live in the refugee camps.

Also considering the following:
The following statement in the PA daily by the Supreme National Committee
for the Protection of the Right of Return also reiterates the PA policy of
preventing the integration of the refugee camps into urban housing units,
calling it a "danger".
Click to expand...

it becomes quite debatable who is treating the Palestinians like animals.
 
Well lets go around the block and see how Palestinians are treated.


West Bank - Palestinians still live in "refugee" camps on Palestinian land under the control of the Palestinian Authority. They suffer mass poverty and retaliatory attacks by Israel because the Palestinian Authority refuses to stop terrorists from using the camps and palestinian civilian areas for bases of operation and for cover and concealment. There have been no elections for 15 years.

Gaza - Palestinians still live in "refugee" camps on Palestinian land under the control of the Palestinian Authority. They suffer mass poverty and retaliatory attacks by Israel because the Palestinian Authority refuses to stop terrorists from using the camps and palestinian civilian areas for bases of operation and for cover and concealment. There have been no elections for 15 years.

Lebanon - Arafat and the PLO backed a civil war there, over 100,000 Lebanese died, Palestinians are barred from all but menial jobs, forbidden to buy property or travel freely and refused social services. After 50 years almost all palestinians still live in "refugee" camps.

Syria - Home office of every Palestinian terror group, 391,651 Palestinian refugees registered with the UN Relief and Works Agency, about 28 percent are still living in "refugee" camps. Palestinian refugees in Syria are not eligible for citizenship but they are permitted to work and have access to government services.

Jordan - Arafat and the PLO started a civil war there, over 3000 Jordanians died. 1,639,718 Palestinian "refugees" are registered with the UN Relief and Works Agency. Palestinians constitute more than half of Jordan’s total population. Palestinians in Jordan have full citizenship rights, including the right to vote except Jordan does not offer citizenship to Palestinians who originated in the Gaza Strip.

Saudi Arabia - Financial backer to every palestinian terror group since day one and home to 123,000 Palestinians, most of whom have legal status, but are not formally recognized as refugees.

Kuwait - Arafat and the PLO backed Saddam in the invasion of Kuwait. 400,000 palestinians were subsequently exiled from their homes and Kuwait by force in the early 1990s. source.

Palestinians are the pawns of the Arab world in their war against Israel. Arafat started a civil war in Jordan, he was a huge part of the civil war in Lebanon and he backed Saddam in the invasion of Kuwait...now he's blown any chance of peace between Israel and the Palestinians. But never mind all those facts and repeat after me; Arafat has never done anything to hurt the palestinians...it's all Sharon's fault... it's all the settlers fault... it's all the apartheid walls' fault...;)
 
One of these days, ZN, you'll have an original thought in your head, or express ideas that you have come to formulate from reading various sources of information. Until then, lists that are just copied from biased sites are your stock in trade. Make sure you cross that one about Mossad not helping Hamas off the list for a start.
 
Cleopatra said:


In my opening post I did not suggest that Israel is the cornerstone of democracy in the western world. Only some days ago I posted that even in the most advanced democracies human rights are violated.

In the prisons and in the police stations of western countries occur incidents that israelis don't even imagine and yet it's Israel that is in war not those countries.

I didn't see any comments though about the decision of the Palestinian Supreme National Committee for the Protection of the Right of Return to deny the right of voting in the Palestinians that live in the refugee camps.

Also considering the following:


it becomes quite debatable who is treating the Palestinians like animals.
Click to expand...

Do they retain the right to vote in elections in the country from which they fled as refugees?
 
Jaggy Bunnet said:
Do they retain the right to vote in elections in the country from which they fled as refugees?
Click to expand...
From which country they fled as refugees from the one that they refused to take when UN offered it to them?
 
a_unique_person said:
One of these days, ZN, you'll have an original thought in your head, or express ideas that you have come to formulate from reading various sources of information. Until then, lists that are just copied from biased sites are your stock in trade. Make sure you cross that one about Mossad not helping Hamas off the list for a start.
Click to expand...

Translation: You're not wrong, you haven't said anything I can refute, so I'll just bash your presentation and dismiss you that way.
 
a_unique_person said:
One of these days, ZN, you'll have an original thought in your head, or express ideas that you have come to formulate from reading various sources of information. Until then, lists that are just copied from biased sites are your stock in trade. Make sure you cross that one about Mossad not helping Hamas off the list for a start.
Click to expand...
Unique, the problem is that he doesn't lie, what Z-N posted are facts. As I have posted repeatedly for every fact there is always a counter fact but the problem or the arabs and the Israeli pacifists is that for every of the facts above one can only make vague references about the brutality of the IDF which is a fact in some cases.

When PLO guerillas don't hesitate to use ambulances in order to murder civilians how fool do I appear when I preach about their rights?Very fool, me thinks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom