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Isn't Prophesy Impossible?

Kahalachan

Illuminator
Joined
May 21, 2007
Messages
4,237
I don't mean in a cynical "prophesy is a bunch of BS" type thing.

I mean literally. If your prophesy is too specific, there's the possibility someone can change it and you'd be wrong. Or it could be self fulfilling.

If your prophesy is too vague (applies to all woo out there), then it's not credible enough.

You could remove the human element and predict something natural like when it'll rain, but that would fall under science.
 
That wouldn't make it impossible, just potentially unmeasurable.

If I had genuine 100% accurate psychic abilities, I could predict "If you leave the house now you will be hit by a bus and die" and be completely correct. if you did, you would.

You could then choose to wait a bit, have a cup of tea, then not be hit by the bus.

My prediction may have been entirely accurate, but still alterable.

Of course nobody would ever then be able to demonstrate that I would have been correct.
 
It's impossible to foretell the future. If you knew the future ahead of time, you'd be able to change it- and then it wouldn't be the future! Your original divination wouldn't be true after all. It's a self undermining paradox.

Unless you believe everything is destiny and prearranged, either by God or the stars. And the idea of destiny and everything being prearranged opens a world of questions. Not to even mention what the idea of God does.

And that's just to start with. The other reasons it would be impossible to tell the future could- and have- filled textbooks.
 
If you're predicting things that people would have the ability to change, you get into the question of whether we have free will. The way round this would be for the person prophesising to establish credibility by predicting things we have no control over: the weather, natural disasters, etc. Once you've established that someone appears able to predict future events with sufficient accuracy to be worthy of further study, you can start testing their ability to predict events we can change.
 
I don't mean in a cynical "prophesy is a bunch of BS" type thing.

I mean literally. If your prophesy is too specific, there's the possibility someone can change it and you'd be wrong. Or it could be self fulfilling.

If your prophesy is too vague (applies to all woo out there), then it's not credible enough.

You could remove the human element and predict something natural like when it'll rain, but that would fall under science.
Interesting that someone brought this up. One thing that's always bothered me about "predictions" is that they are often revealed beforehand. Now, before someone says, "Well they have to be, otherwise, they are post-dictions and are worthless." No, what I am saying is that in order for any prediction or prophecy to have the potential to be valid, it must be recorded, concealed, safeguarded against tampering, and then revealed after it has come to pass, otherwise, every prophecy is a self-fulfilling prophecy because of the possibility that someone can act on it to either help bring it about or prevent it.

Disclaimer: I do not believe in prophecy or prediction whatsover. I am simply pointing out the logical flaw in the way predictions are usually conducted.
 
If universe is deterministic and free will does not actually exist (I am not claiming that is the case, I am stating a hypothetical), then prophecies are possible, and knowledge of a prophecy changes nothing. After all, if you jump off a skyscraper and I "prophecise" that you will hit the ground and die, then you hearing my prophecy will not make any difference to the outcome. In a deterministic universe all events are as inevitable as you hitting the ground, just not as obviously.

This is tackled head-on in Heinlein's short story "Life-Line". Time is fourth dimension, and viewed in four dimensions all objects, including people, do not "move" or "change" -- they just ARE. If you know your own 4-dimensional shape, you know your future, and there is not a damn thing you can do to alter it. Anything you think or attempt is already factored into that 4-dimensional shape.
 
Easy enough to predict future events if one is vague enough and uses poetic words. Nosterdamus counted on this
 
The way round this would be for the person prophesising to establish credibility by predicting things we have no control over: the weather, natural disasters, etc.
No need to go so far, just predict a random event.
Like the lottery numbers.

Heck, just predict the result of a die roll 100 times in a row.
 
I personally think most of it is woo, but have pondered the usefulness on different levels behind what you're saying, specifically:

* keeping a prophesy completely and utterly concealed so as not to effect the "event" at all
* figuring out how feasible it might be to measure the free-will verses self-fulfilling factor, etc
* the usefullness of a prophesy after the fact, even vague ones that are open to interpretation

I think if someone were able to prove prophetic ability beyond the shadow of a doubt (using the concealment method to limit the amount of manipulation on an event), that would more or less speak for itself and provide a means for further study of the phenomena from a more scientific pov.

However, since we mostly have "prophecy" that is often vague or open to interpretation ... or retro-fitted after the fact, the free-will verses the self-fulfilling aspect is very difficult to establish if you have a pov that the prophecy was possibly legitimate at all.

But what I think is interesting, is the overall effect prophecy has, REGARDLESS of whether or not it's verifiably true. By this I mean, perhaps prophecy isn't meant to be validated, rather it is a way to effect and manipulate events in a subtle way, more or less like marketing.

I'm reminded of the Matrix where the "oracle" reveals to Neo that "he isn't the one", only later Neo finds out that he is the one. Thus Morpheus reveals to Neo, "the oracle told you what you needed to hear, that was all,". So did the oracle manipulate Neo to fulfill her own motives, or did Neo "choose" to do what he wanted anyway, or are both answers correct, or are neither answer correct?

In the above example, it's almost irrelevant whether or not the oracle was "real" or "true". She was merely a moment in Neo's history, a sort of catalyst. And regardless of whether or not she was legit, Neo's actions after the fact could be examined and measured somehow, to see an overall trend. After a given amount of time, did the oracles words seem to have an impact at all? They most certainly did. Were they true? Perhaps yes, perhaps no. Who all was effected as a result of the oracles words? Well, Morpheus, Neo, Trinity, etc and so forth.

What's interesting to note, is that Neo didn't believe the oracle originally. One could say this gives more validity to her words. But realistically, how do we know Neo's overall psyche and motives? How do we know he didn't "want" to believe in her or not?

In some ways (continuing with the oracle example) ... some of her words were meant for a few and had limited impact, while other times her words had more of a corporate effect (a larger group).

From this angle, a prophet/seer/oracle is really no different from any other person then. It's all a "butterfly effect". The only thing that really makes a prophet/sser stand out from the rest, is that their words are usually predicting a future event .... and at some point in time, people will see events happening and compare them to that prophet who spoke them previously. When that happens, the prophet becomes a relevant part of the history of that event, regardless of whether or not the prophecy was even true or not. I think the validity of the prophet him/herself and their words is almost moot at that point .... what is more relevant is "what do we do now that we have looked back and matched the words to the now".

In the case of, say, the Seventh Day Adventists ... examining much of their failed prophecies should, imo, lead them to disband their denomination and realize the events didn't come to pass and let it go. It could be argued, in that case, that the purpose of the prophet was to "Deceive" in order to save ... to disband a group of delusional people. Since they didn't disband, and still justify the prophecies as valid somehow .... one could also argue that the purpose of the prophet was thwarted by free-will, etc and so forth. And thus they should stay banded together as a denom and not "fail the test of their faith" or whatever.

But since much time has passed, The prophecies themselves have proven untrustworthy, and thus the group should disband in my opinion (for example). Thus the prophet was a catalyst, and the change he/she provided could be "positive" if "only the Adventists would listen." :)

Also, I think the usefullness of prophecy could be examined from a "what lesson did this teach me or others" pov, when examining an overall picture.

Finally, I think prophecy is extremely relevant to both those who "believe" and those who dont. Take this forum for example. There are many who claim pre-cog abilities and prophetic type of knowledge, etc etc. Even the "everyday" believer who spouts out the bible is more or less spouting out prophecy when they talk about what happens when we die, etc and so forth. Now, to the skeptic, they want to see evidence. As such there hasn't been proof provided by the claimants. The claimants continue to bring up the same old broken records with the same results as well. Looking at the overall outcome of the "prophetic" aspect in regards to this forum, I see a positive impact on the skeptic in the sense that it keeps them from delusions and "woo" that is, usually, harmful to society in some form or fashion on varying levels. And I see the believers often getting worked up and further distancing themselves from those who disagree with them. This is something I would consider to be a "negative" consequence.

And so the usefulness of prophecy seems more divisive, practically, in this type of environment. But it is positive in the sense that it keeps the critical thinker from falling into woo and going down a path that could potentially cause them unncessary stress and hardship by believing in fantasy, magic, and other unprovable things.

So is the prophetic aspect doing it's job then? I think there is a corporate and individual effect both that should be examined overall. But the point is, I think we often look to the validity of the actual words of the prophetic, rather than the overall effect/result the prophetic had. And when a prophecy can be referenced, it had an impact regardless ---- to the individual who mentioned it and referenced it at the bare minimum level.

Now --- true pre-cog (i.e. ----- John Smith will get hit by a red corvette crossing blah blah Street at 11:23 this afternoon and nothing will change that) is a different thing perhaps all together and then takes into account both overall effect and detail.

Just my 2 cents :)
 
I predict that this prediction will result in someone doing something to either prove or contradict it.
 
No need to go so far, just predict a random event.
Like the lottery numbers.

Heck, just predict the result of a die roll 100 times in a row.

Probably a good starting point, although I can see people claiming the lottery was rigged, the die was loaded, etc. Sooner or later you'd need to move on to things completely outside human control.

Well, unless those guys at H.A.A.R.P. get wind of the earthquake prediction and try to mess with us.
 
If one successfully predicts a future occurrence, then it would seem that the incident would already be manifest in reality in some way, and also that somehow information about the incident was being transmitted backwards in time to the "prophet"....

The difficulties with all these notions are....Difficult.
 
There's also the Cassandra effect too, named after Apollo's human lover who he gifted with foretelling but cursed with no one ever believing her after she rejected him. You can know with certainty that say a terrorist attack will take place on a certain day against a certain target, and if you're not taken seriously (because there's no realistic way you can know) it'll still happen just as you saw.
 
There's also the Cassandra effect too, named after Apollo's human lover who he gifted with foretelling but cursed with no one ever believing her after she rejected him. You can know with certainty that say a terrorist attack will take place on a certain day against a certain target, and if you're not taken seriously (because there's no realistic way you can know) it'll still happen just as you saw.
The opposite of this might be the "Jonah effect" I suppose.

He goes to prophesy to Ninevah that they were going to be destroyed in 30 days or whatever, and they all "repent" and thus are spared. So listening to him caused "god to relent".

But how could anyone ever prove that Jonah was a legit prophet?

Also ... I LOVE the bible passages that are conveniently not mentioned where god himself says that he will send false prophets amongst the people! LOL

1 Kings:
21And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

22And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

23Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
 
I think your premise is wrong. There's no reason why prophecy should be impossible within a perfectly deterministic universe. All you're really saying is that certain things could not be foretold. For example, assume we are living in a perfectly deterministic universe. Assume, then, that the unfolding of the future is quite unalterable; it's going to play out the way it's going to play out no matter what. Now also assume that I am endowed with the ability to foresee the future. The logical consequence is simply this: that nothing I prophesy can possibly alter that future. Every prophetic utterance I make is simply a necessary part in bringing about the future I foresee.

Another way of thinking about this is that any acts that I could prevent merely be prophesying them either A, aren't going to happen anyway (therefore I won't foresee them, therefore I won't prophesy them) or B, won't be prophesied by me (the people to whom they are going to happen aren't reachable or I'm a bastard or I'm struck dumb or what have you).

There's another whole category, of course, of acts which I AM capable of prophesying and which I DO prophesy and which in some way are in fact brought about by the very act of prophesying them (we might call these the "short story twist ending" prophecies).
 
This movie isn't about prophecy, but it's an interesting take on accidentally discovering time travel. It's an Indie flick:

Primer

The guy who wrote it (mathematician and engineer) also shot it, starred in it, did everything for about 7,000$ and mostly all on his laptop IIRC. I had to see it a couple of times to understand some of the implications. But I could see how some of the ideas could be correlated to "prophecy" and effecting the future with knowledge of the future.
 
Probably a good starting point, although I can see people claiming the lottery was rigged, the die was loaded, etc. Sooner or later you'd need to move on to things completely outside human control.
That depends on what you qualify as a proof - Proof for what?
For the MDC? The lottery will do.

For the rest of humanity? Tougher to say. To each his own burden of proof.

Well, unless those guys at H.A.A.R.P. get wind of the earthquake prediction and try to mess with us.
Please don't encourage you know who...

The opposite of this might be the "Jonah effect" I suppose.

He goes to prophesy to Ninevah that they were going to be destroyed in 30 days or whatever, and they all "repent" and thus are spared. So listening to him caused "god to relent".
40 days... This is your basic numerology :D

But how could anyone ever prove that Jonah was a legit prophet?
You missed the point of the story.
Jonah's story isn't about the deterministic possibilities of the universe, it's about God's supposed mercy and redemption.
(That's why it's being read at Yom Kipur).

Jonah was suppose to give the people of Nineveh a warning.
"Stop sinning or else"
However, he did not wish for them to receive mercy so he made everything he possibly could to screw them over. He tried avoiding it and when God didn't let him, he gave them a prophecy that's insanely vague without even telling what their sins were, what God will punish them or that they even have a chance of escaping.

It wasn't a prophecy, but a final warning. The fact that he changed the wording is his own fault.

As for other people in the bible, well in the earlier stories where God actually does something - He gives miracles beforehand to convince the people of his chosen ones (e.g Moses or Gideon).
In the later stories where God disappears, his prophecies simply come true but nobody listens to the prophets (e.g Jeramaya or Izikiel) and the prophets constantly whine about it :)
 

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