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Is Democracy really the answer?

anti-Democracy

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Joined
Sep 19, 2005
Messages
33
In Democracy:

You pay tons of taxes and spend hours filling out archaic forms.

You vote on issues to affect a faraway state

Your representatives pander to rich interest groups and spend tax money on nice sports cars

You are only allowed to say things insofar they don't offend innocent secular humanists or whiny christians

You vote for people who only car about expanding their wealth or power

You go to war to defend a foreign nation

You provide tax money in the form of aid reaching the billions a year to said nation.

You lose your right to own guns because they look mean and mean things are evil. Objectively.

You lose the right to defend yourself.

You haved to worry about getting sued because you said something a lawyer or corporation didn't like.

You have to deal with incompetent banks and insurance companies

You can't eat fish from the rivers because the rivers are polluted

...

Given all of this.....

Does anyone still think that Democracy is the answer?

(This is in philosophy since it is political philosophy and does not DIRECTLY deal with individual contemporary political issues)
 
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How strange. I read the title as "Is Necromancy really the answer?"

I suppose it depends on the question.
 
You can't eat fish from the rivers because the rivers are polluted

This is the worst part of democracy in my opinion, the pollution.

Look at China, a good communist nation and not even the tiniest hint of pollution anywhere.

I also blame democracy for the speed at which the tyres on my care wear out.
 
I'll agree with Mr. Churchill.

Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other forms that have been tried from time to time.

There are days when I look around the U.S. and conclude that it is too easy to get a voter registration card in this country.
 
I'll agree with Mr. Churchill.

Democracy is the worst form of government except for all the other forms that have been tried from time to time.

There are days when I look around the U.S. and conclude that it is too easy to get a voter registration card in this country.

Democracy inherently relies on MASS rule, thus people being low quality as a whole will result in low-quality leadership.

Authoritarian forms of government tend to rely on the abilities of leaders. Bad leaders still means you're ****ed but at least you have the potential for CAPABLE LEADERS THAT DO NOT COME FROM DEMOCRATIC ELECTIONS.
 
Is trolling the answer?

When trolling:

You make tons of posts spend hours starting cryptic threads.

You say nasty things to affect people in a faraway state

Your posts pander to the lowest common denominator and because nobody likes you, you'll never spend any money on nice sports cars

You only open your mouth to say things to deliberately offend innocent secular humanists or whiny christians

You annoy people who only car pool to work

You start flame wars to get attention

You provide nothing of interest at all wasting billions of seconds a year.

You lose your right to say anything intelligent and basically become evil. Objectively.

You can't possibly to defend the stupid things you say.

You haved to worry about getting flamed because you said something nobody liked.

You have to deal with your incompetent self when you wake up in the morning

You can't eat fish from the rivers because you spend too much time hanging out under a bridge

...

Given all of this.....

Does anyone still think that trolling is the answer?

(This is pointless since it is nonsense philosophy and does not DIRECTLY deal with any relevant issues at all)
 
My responses are going to get redundant, but here goes:

In Democracy:

You pay tons of taxes and spend hours filling out archaic forms.

How does the form of government affect the amount of taxes you pay? Monarchs level taxes, too-- the people just have less control over the degree of taxation in a monarchy.

"Endless forms" are more a symptom of a complex bureaucracy than of a democratic government. Maintaining any kind of organizational structure over millions of people is going to require quite a bit of paperwork.

You vote on issues to affect a faraway state
In a representative democracy (i.e., republic) like the United States, you rarely vote directly on issues at all. If you are voting directly on an issue, it's in a state referendum. The issues in national elections are generally those effecting the entire nation (or, to use a somewhat archaic but more descriptive term, "commonwealth"), and are of interest to everyone.

Your representatives pander to rich interest groups and spend tax money on nice sports cars

Is this worse than the aristocracy getting rich off of taxes and levies imposed on the common people, who have no influence whatsoever? At least corrupt representatives can be voted out of office.

You are only allowed to say things insofar they don't offend innocent secular humanists or whiny christians
This is simply not true. And a monarchy is hardly more likely to protect freedom of expression better than a republic.

You vote for people who only car about expanding their wealth or power
Again, this is a sort of high-school cynicism that bashes the "establishment" with too broad a brush. And to the extent that it is true that some (certainly not all, probably not a majority) elected officials are primarily interested in their own gain, at least you get to vote for them. What's the alternative?

You go to war to defend a foreign nation
Again, how is this a criticism against democracy/republicanism in general? The United States makes a bad decision, therefore the whole form of government is illegitimate?

You provide tax money in the form of aid reaching the billions a year to said nation.
Again... so what? Elected representatives make decisions on how to spend the national wealth. Would it be better to have a monarch, not accountable to anyone, make these decisions? Would that lead to wiser or more responsible decisionmaking? History suggests that in most cases, it would not.

You lose your right to own guns because they look mean and mean things are evil. Objectively.
1. Do you think you would have any "rights" at all under an absolute monarchy?
2. This is simply not true. The last time I checked, the Second Amendment has not been repealed.
3. Opposition to gun ownership might also have something to do with the fact that guns are frequently used to kill people, aside from looking mean.

You lose the right to defend yourself.
1. Once again, where do you think "rights" come from? Do you think that your rights would be more secure if they were entirely dependent on the whim of a dictator?
2. This is also not true. I don't know of a single state that does not recognize the right of self-defense in appropriate situations.

You haved to worry about getting sued because you said something a lawyer or corporation didn't like.
What does this have to do with the democratic/republican form of government?

You have to deal with incompetent banks and insurance companies
Incompetent banks are a consequence of a democratic system of government? You were really running out of ideas toward the end, weren't you?

You can't eat fish from the rivers because the rivers are polluted
I really can't even think of an intelligent response to this one. How does a democratic system encourage pollution?

As an aside, I think that some of your objections are more applicable to capitalism than to democracy, and they may be to some degree legitimate in that context. But, whatever Ronald Reagan would have you believe, capitalism and democracy are not synonymous.

Does anyone still think that Democracy is the answer?

Personally I'm not a great fan of democracy (/republicanism, because there really is no such thing as a pure democracy). It's messy, inefficient, and tends to break down unless the voting population is sufficiently engaged in the process, which has not been the case in the United States for some time now. It also rests on the irrationally egalitarian assumption that every citizen's opinion is as valid as every other citizen's, and that the will of the majority will be correct in most cases. However, it's a more risk-averse strategy than monarchy. A good monarch can rule much more effectively than a democracy, to the greater benefit of all the population. However, a bad monarch can be really, really bad. You're also stuck with a monarch for a long time, generally a matter of several decades, and there's no error-correcting mechanism short of bloody rebellion. Democracy avoids these extremes by keeping society drifting in the doldrums of mediocrity where change, either for good or bad, is more difficult to bring about. On balance, I suppose I prefer the latter approach, but the ideal situation would be to be ruled by an intelligent, benevolent monarch who was actively engaged in the business of government and genuinely concerned with the best interests of the people. If only God were real.
 
In Democracy:

You pay tons of taxes and spend hours filling out archaic forms.

This would be a problem with beaurocracy, not democracy. Though they do rhyme, I can see where you were confused.

You vote on issues to affect a faraway state

Such as?

Your representatives pander to rich interest groups and spend tax money on nice sports cars

Sounds like someone doesn't have a sports car. Poor baby.

You are only allowed to say things insofar they don't offend innocent secular humanists or whiny christians

Really? Democracy says that eh? Or were you projecting your own frustration? I seem to remember soemthing about free speech... What was that again?

You vote for people who only car about expanding their wealth or power

I don't, but then that doesn't matter to your strawman, does it? (nice spelling error, by the way)

You go to war to defend a foreign nation

Which conflict are you talking about? Is the notion of going to war to defend europe in WW2 wrong somehow? Or were you lumping all wars into your strawman?

You provide tax money in the form of aid reaching the billions a year to said nation.

Hey, you provide tax money to provide medicaid to those in need of health care and also to educate children up to age 18! That sucks too, doesn't it? :boggled: But you're right, you should never clean up your own mess, and obviously you can't vote to change anything, can you? Whatever.

You lose your right to own guns because they look mean and mean things are evil. Objectively.

I would love to see the law that used the term "because they look mean and mean things are evil." Last I checked you could still own a gun in the US.

You lose the right to defend yourself.

No you don't.


You haved to worry about getting sued because you said something a lawyer or corporation didn't like.

You're right, libel doesn't exist. Perhaps you should inform SCOTUS.

You have to deal with incompetent banks and insurance companies

I don't see where this is the fault of democracy.

You can't eat fish from the rivers because the rivers are polluted

Again, not the fault of democracy.

...

Given all of this.....

Does anyone still think that Democracy is the answer?

(This is in philosophy since it is political philosophy and does not DIRECTLY deal with individual contemporary political issues)


You're a trolling twat with alot of strawmen. Go learn some critical thinking skills and get back to us.
 
Does anyone still think that Democracy is the answer?
Oh, absolutely yes! Democracy is arguably one of the greatest contributions to humankind. It has liberated and empowered humans to a degree that truly is not comprehensible. No, it's not perfect nor is it always fair. Dynamic systems composed of hundreds of millions if not billions of people with conflicting goals, needs and desires simply can't meet everyone's needs absolutely.

There will always be some degree of bureaucracy, inefficiency, crime, pride, envy, graft, corruption, hatred, jealousy, want, etc.. These things can't be eliminated they can only be managed and reduced.

Democracy does a damn good job of it. The question isn't whether there should be Democracy the question has to deal with the details.

Let me recommend The Case For Democracy: The Power of Freedom to Overcome Tyranny and Terror.
 
In Democracy:

You pay tons of taxes and spend hours filling out archaic forms.


As opposed to a dictatorship, where the government just takes anything it wants from you without any redress or rule of law.

You vote on issues to affect a faraway state

As opposed to a dictatorship, where your leader does things that affect faraway states without bothering to even ask you.

Your representatives pander to rich interest groups and spend tax money on nice sports cars

As opposed to a dictatorship, where you have no representatives at all and your unelected leader does the same thing (and far worse) without you having any power to replace them.

You are only allowed to say things insofar they don't offend innocent secular humanists or whiny christians

Not true, of course, but even if it were, it would still be better than a dictatorship, where you are not allowed to say anything that offends the leaders--and the penalty is not merely shutting you up, but usually killing you.

You vote for people who only car about expanding their wealth or power

As opposed to a dictatorship, where the leader doesn't need to care about expanding his wealth and power any more because he already has absolute power and, in practice, owns everything since he can take anything from anyone without redress if he feels like it.

You go to war to defend a foreign nation

As opposed to a dictatorship, where you go to war for that same reason--or any other reason the dictator invents--without having anybody ask you or require your approval.

You provide tax money in the form of aid reaching the billions a year to said nation.

As opposed to a dictatorship, where the same thing happens (e.g., the USSR's military support of numerous governments) but, again, without you having the least control over it or any ability to change it.

You lose your right to own guns because they look mean and mean things are evil. Objectively.

As opposed to a dictatorship (e.g., Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia) where there is no right to own a gun in the first place, since that would endanger the dictator's thugs control of power.

You lose the right to defend yourself.

As opposed to a dictatorship, where that right is not lost because it doesn't exist--nobody but the leaders have any rights to defend themselves or, for that matter, to do anything. (Or do you suppose you could have argued with the Gestapo if they came to arrest you on the Fuhrer's orders?)

You haved to worry about getting sued because you said something a lawyer or corporation didn't like.

As opposed to a dictatorship, where you have to worry about ketting killed and/or sent to Siberia for having said something the leader doesn't like, even in the privacy of your own home, as you never know if any of your family members might not be in the pay of the secret police.

You have to deal with incompetent banks and insurance companies

No such problems in dictatorships, thank God, since almost everybody apart from the leaders has any money or property worth insuring, and besides, it can just be taken away at the leader's whim without any insurance being able to do anything about it.

You can't eat fish from the rivers because the rivers are polluted

As opposed to dictatorships, such as the USSR and the eastern block, which were so notoriously enviormentally friendly... one word: Chernobyl.

Given all of this.....

Given all of this...

Does anyone still think that Democracy is the answer?

Does anybody still think dictatorship is the answer?

(This is in philosophy since it is political philosophy and does not DIRECTLY deal with individual contemporary political issues)

(This is in philosophy since the writer reponded to shows clearly what happens when logic and rational thought are abandoned.)
 
Anti-dem has a point. Maybe it would be better if we were all ruled by trolls...
 
YEAH!!! Democracy sucks. We should return to feudalism. No nations, only small patches of land ruled by land-lords that have prima notte rights. And a ruler appointed by God must be a competent one!

You pay tons of taxes and spend hours filling out archaic forms.
No forms. Just a percentage of you crops arbitrarily stabilished by the land lord.
You vote on issues to affect a faraway state
No voting about anything.
Your representatives pander to rich interest groups and spend tax money on nice sports cars
No representatives.
You are only allowed to say things insofar they don't offend innocent secular humanists or whiny christians
You are allowed to say "Yes sire". While bending, of course.
You vote for people who only car about expanding their wealth or power
You don't vote, peasant. Go back to you field now or you'll be sent to the dungeon.
You go to war to defend a foreign nation
You will go to war whenever your landlord decides. And it will not be to defend any foreign nation...
You provide tax money in the form of aid reaching the billions a year to said nation.
Your landlord pays taxes only to Rome and eventually to another nearby landlord that can kick his butt.
You lose your right to own guns because they look mean and mean things are evil. Objectively.
You have the right to own bows, clubs, spears, axes, daggers, forks, etc. You will not have money to afford a sword.
You lose the right to defend yourself.
You can't loose it. You just don't have it...
You haved to worry about getting sued because you said something a lawyer or corporation didn't like.
Don't worry about lawyers. Your landlord, possibly with the help of some priests, will judge you and decide your punishment. It's simple, it's direct, no expensive and lenghty tribunals.
You have to deal with incompetent banks and insurance companies
In feudalism, you don't. There are no banks, insurance companies and no money. At least for you, peasant.
You can't eat fish from the rivers because the rivers are polluted
No pollution other than the sewage from the castle and peasant's houses. However, the landlord may decide peasants are not alloed to fish in his rivers or hunt in his forest. A minor issue.

Troll happy now?
Now, go back to your cave or sunlight will turn you in to stone...
 
Hmmm... yet another person who doesn't understand what Democrary is. (I mean, if you're going to harp on it, at least try to understand the concept.) What's scary is some of these people are in government.
 
YEAH!!! Democracy sucks. We should return to feudalism. No nations, only small patches of land ruled by land-lords that have prima notte rights. And a ruler appointed by God must be a competent one!
...snip...

Well you've convinved me feudalism's the way forward as long as I can be a feudal lord :D (and I don't have to give up modern medical technology etc.)
 
I note AntiDemocracy's been suspended.

Anyone got the odds on when he'll be banned?

What did he do to be suspended? I thought his arguments were misguided, but it never hurts to articulate defenses to the republican system of government once in a while. Could have led to an interesting discussion, had he bothered to respond with a reasonable argument to anyone who criticized his first post.
 
Ugh.

You pay tons of taxes and spend hours filling out archaic forms.

In monarchy, what little money you have is litterally beaten out of you.

You vote on issues to affect a faraway state

In a dictatorship, you don't get to vote. Only mourne.

Your representatives pander to rich interest groups and spend tax money on nice sports cars

Isn't that the SAME thing you get in EVERY system ?

You are only allowed to say things insofar they don't offend innocent secular humanists or whiny christians

In mornachies, you're not allowed to have an opinion.

You go to war to defend a foreign nation

In tyrannies, you're always at war.

You lose your right to own guns because they look mean and mean things are evil. Objectively.

You lose the right to defend yourself.

No you don't. You just don't have the right to murder your neigh...

Wait a minute. Don't you STILL have the right to buy guns in the US ?

You haved to worry about getting sued because you said something a lawyer or corporation didn't like.

Beats getting your head chopped off by the local priest.

You have to deal with incompetent banks and insurance companies

How does this relate to democracy ?

You can't eat fish from the rivers because the rivers are polluted

Same question, but with the eyebrow even MORE raised.

Given all of this.....

Does anyone still think that Democracy is the answer?

Nope. I don't like democracy, because the majority, that is, less-than-smart people, make decisions. Unfortunately, the only other alternative seems a single (or small group of) leader(s) with the good of the people in mind. Yeah. Right.
 

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