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IRS Asked If Churches Can Pray for Bush Re-Election

Churches should pay taxes just like the rest of us. They cry seperation of chruch/state only when it suits them. Theyve never shyed away from political influenceing.
 
What's a prayer worth?

Are they thinking that if 100 church members pray for 1 hour, it is worth 100 X minimum wage for the hour?

Charlie (is it tax deductible as a poltical donation?) Monoxide

PS Imagine how the TM'ers can cash in on this.
 
Actually, if God lives in Heaven, and his believers communicate via prayer, aren't they actually engaged in completely unregulated use of the airwaves without FCC oversight or approval? Have they licensed those frequencies?

About time government cracked down on this sort of abuse of public airwaves by special interest groups!
 
fishbob said:
CNS News


Are they serious?
Click to expand...

"Americans United says churches that support or oppose a candidate may face an IRS audit, fines and loss of tax-exempt status."

Are they serious?
 
Re: Re: IRS Asked If Churches Can Pray for Bush Re-Election

Troll said:
"Americans United says churches that support or oppose a candidate may face an IRS audit, fines and loss of tax-exempt status."

Are they serious?
Click to expand...

Churches get their tax-exempt status because they are supposed to be religious bodies, not political action committees. If they being officially supporting particular candidates, they cross the line into politicking and must pay taxes like other organizations.

If you want special status, you have to play by the rules. Any church who wants to go into politics is welcome to do so--they just have to start paying their share in taxes, for once.
 
fishbob said:
CNS News


Are they serious?
Click to expand...

I seem to recall learning somewhere that there are rules involving what clergy may or may not say from the pulpit to maintain their tax exempt status. My understanding is that clergy may endorse an issue, but not a candidate.

I am by no means an expert, and would welcome clarification/correction from anyone more knowledgeable.
 
Re: Re: Re: IRS Asked If Churches Can Pray for Bush Re-Election

TragicMonkey said:
Churches get their tax-exempt status because they are supposed to be religious bodies, not political action committees. If they being officially supporting particular candidates, they cross the line into politicking and must pay taxes like other organizations.

If you want special status, you have to play by the rules. Any church who wants to go into politics is welcome to do so--they just have to start paying their share in taxes, for once.
Click to expand...

Yes, but if they offer no financial assistance they are playing by the rules. Would telling a reporter in an interview you are for a candidate be breaking such a rule? Perhaps that is why they are asking the IRS? To verify the legal aspect of what they want to do before they do it.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: IRS Asked If Churches Can Pray for Bush Re-Election

Troll said:
Yes, but if they offer no financial assistance they are playing by the rules. Would telling a reporter in an interview you are for a candidate be breaking such a rule?
Click to expand...

The rules in question are for keeping your organization's tax exempt status. Any individual member of the church can say whatever they want --as an individual. If they were to present the view of their church as a body, then their church is not acting as a religious body but a political one. Political bodies have to pay taxes. Almost everyone has to pay taxes. Churches are the exception...and one that is questionable at best. Why shouldn't they pay taxes?

Edited to add: the IRS calls it 501(c)(3) status, and lists the requirements to obtain and keep such status in IRS Publications 4220 and 557. I could only find very non-cut-and-pasteable PDFs, but they list out the "no politicking" rules.
 
Originally posted by Troll:
"Americans United says churches that support or oppose a candidate may face an IRS audit, fines and loss of tax-exempt status."

I was under the impression that this meant monetary support for a candidate, however, I have been known to be wrong.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IRS Asked If Churches Can Pray for Bush Re-Election

TragicMonkey said:
The rules in question are for keeping your organization's tax exempt status. Any individual member of the church can say whatever they want --as an individual. If they were to present the view of their church as a body, then their church is not acting as a religious body but a political one. Political bodies have to pay taxes. Almost everyone has to pay taxes. Churches are the exception...and one that is questionable at best. Why shouldn't they pay taxes?
Click to expand...

I do not know why they shouldn't have to pay taxes. I will also not discuss why I feel they should here as the subject is about their seeking knowledge on whether or not this sort of thing, "prayer", would affect their status.

If they are praying in churches to their congregations for one candidateover the other, I do not see how this would be a "public" support for one or the other but merely a like minded group of people sharing a thought in a place like minded people hang out at.
 
fishbob said:
Originally posted by Troll:
"Americans United says churches that support or oppose a candidate may face an IRS audit, fines and loss of tax-exempt status."

I was under the impression that this meant monetary support for a candidate, however, I have been known to be wrong.
Click to expand...

Well from what I deciphered from the article it is just a prayer in church thing, which is why I can't see a problem with it. Though the publicity behind it is far more of a public endorsement than the actual act itself. :D
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IRS Asked If Churches Can Pray for Bush Re-Election

Troll said:
If they are praying in churches to their congregations for one candidateover the other, I do not see how this would be a "public" support for one or the other but merely a like minded group of people sharing a thought in a place like minded people hang out at.
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Depends on how they do it. If the preacher stands up and says "Let's all pray that George Bush wins the election" then he, as the spokesman of the church, is using his religious authority and that of the tax-exempt church to publicly advance a partisan political position. To the IRS, that is not a religious activity. It is a political one.

If, however, the preacher asks the congregation to pray for "the best man to win" without naming one, then that is a general and nonpolitical statement. The church has endorsed nobody, and may keep its tax-exempt status.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IRS Asked If Churches Can Pray for Bush Re-Election

TragicMonkey said:
Depends on how they do it. If the preacher stands up and says "Let's all pray that George Bush wins the election" then he, as the spokesman of the church, is using his religious authority and that of the tax-exempt church to publicly advance a partisan political position. To the IRS, that is not a religious activity. It is a political one.

If, however, the preacher asks the congregation to pray for "the best man to win" without naming one, then that is a general and nonpolitical statement. The church has endorsed nobody, and may keep its tax-exempt status.
Click to expand...

Can't really argue that, but this may seem like I am trying. How public is a church and the events that go on inside? Are they not private buildings and as such out of the realm of what would be considered private? Isn't this the reason they aren't generally hit on nativity scenes and such? And the nativity stuff is outdoors in public view whereas the rest of the stuff we're looking at here would be inside and away from the general public.

I'm seriously just trying to get a better understanding here as it pertains to the law and such.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IRS Asked If Churches Can Pray for Bush Re-Election

Troll said:
Can't really argue that, but this may seem like I am trying. How public is a church and the events that go on inside? Are they not private buildings and as such out of the realm of what would be considered private? Isn't this the reason they aren't generally hit on nativity scenes and such? And the nativity stuff is outdoors in public view whereas the rest of the stuff we're looking at here would be inside and away from the general public.

I'm seriously just trying to get a better understanding here as it pertains to the law and such.
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I think the nativity scenes and all are fine because they are religious in nature--the proper area for a religious body.

I'm guessing the reason underlying the no-politics rule for tax-exempt status is the concern that a religious authority could command his followers to vote a particular way. Being a religious country, America would then find itself under the thumb of the dominant religion--unless the majority of each congregation defied their own religious authorities. However, the religious authorities are either too noble and democratic to do such a thing....or they don't want to lose the money.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IRS Asked If Churches Can Pray for Bush Re-Election

TragicMonkey said:
Depends on how they do it. If the preacher stands up and says "Let's all pray that George Bush wins the election" then he, as the spokesman of the church, is using his religious authority and that of the tax-exempt church to publicly advance a partisan political position. To the IRS, that is not a religious activity. It is a political one.

If, however, the preacher asks the congregation to pray for "the best man to win" without naming one, then that is a general and nonpolitical statement. The church has endorsed nobody, and may keep its tax-exempt status.
Click to expand...


How would that affect Quaker meetings without a pastor?

Anything that one member stands up and says is suposed to be a message from God, and I understand that God is quite the partisan in some cases.


;)
 
Link to Americans United.

One of the perpetual fights of Americans United is that certain church groups support or oppose candidates for office.

Some religious groups have lost their tax-exempt status when they engaged in such activity.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IRS Asked If Churches Can Pray for Bush Re-Election

crimresearch said:
How would that affect Quaker meetings without a pastor?

Anything that one member stands up and says is suposed to be a message from God, and I understand that God is quite the partisan in some cases.
Click to expand...

Good question. I guess it's up to the benevolence of the IRS. But then, do Quakers have much to be taxed? If I were the IRS and looking for sweet god-spoils, I'd focus on the denominations with all the gold and stained glass first.
 
I think that the political parties should establish themselves as churches. That way they can be tax exempt, too. It worked for L Ron Hubbard.

And some people seem to put more faith (e.g. lack of questioning)in their parties and politicians than in their god.

CBL
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: IRS Asked If Churches Can Pray for Bush Re-Election

TragicMonkey said:
Good question. I guess it's up to the benevolence of the IRS. But then, do Quakers have much to be taxed? If I were the IRS and looking for sweet god-spoils, I'd focus on the denominations with all the gold and stained glass first.
Click to expand...

Are you kidding? All that income from oats and oil, and they sure aren't spending it on fancy clothes...

:p
 
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