Irreducible Complexity reducible after all.

[steve s]

I first saw this in today's editorial in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

University of Oregon news site.

Using new techniques for resurrecting ancient genes, scientists have for the first time reconstructed the Darwinian evolution of an apparently "irreducibly complex" molecular system.

"Our work demonstrates a fundamental error in the current challenges to Darwinism," said Thornton. "New techniques allowed us to see how ancient genes and their functions evolved hundreds of millions of years ago. We found that complexity evolved piecemeal through a process of Molecular Exploitation -- old genes, constrained by selection for entirely different functions, have been recruited by evolution to participate in new interactions and new functions."

Steve S.

 

[I less than three logic]

That was a pretty interesting article. I especially like this part.

So-called irreducible complexity was just a reflection of a limited ability to see how evolution works.

Although, I’m unsure whether it was a limited ability to understand or willful ignorance on the subject that contributed the ID movement’s overemphasis of irreducible complexity as a way to disprove the theory of evolution.

 

[Dragon]

...
Although, I’m unsure whether it was a limited ability to understand or willful ignorance on the subject that contributed the ID movement’s overemphasis of irreducible complexity as a way to disprove the theory of evolution.

Both, I think, depending on the individual. Behe and Dembski must be capable of understanding this stuff so they are definitely in the 'wilful ignorance' camp.

 

[Dark Jaguar]

Very interesting! You know, there's a bit of information I've had trouble finding online, but I've often wondered how a creature can get a whole chromosome added or removed from it's DNA. I understand this can cause severe mating difficulties due to the lack of a match for one of them in the mate. But of course, all it takes is one success and a beneficial environment for that change to flourish. I'm just wondering how it goes about.

 

[Art Vandelay]

Well, I guess when you're making an argument from ignorance, you take all the ignorance you can get, willful or otherwise.

Very interesting! You know, there's a bit of information I've had trouble finding online, but I've often wondered how a creature can get a whole chromosome added or removed from [its] DNA.

It happens all the time. Literally every day.

 

[athon]

Very interesting! You know, there's a bit of information I've had trouble finding online, but I've often wondered how a creature can get a whole chromosome added or removed from it's DNA. I understand this can cause severe mating difficulties due to the lack of a match for one of them in the mate. But of course, all it takes is one success and a beneficial environment for that change to flourish. I'm just wondering how it goes about.

It depends on the organism and the chromosome. With humans, for example, extra chromosomes can easily occur without being lethal to the organism. Trisomy occurs with several chromosomes incredibly frequently (the more infamous being number 21, causing Down's Syndrome). Sex chromosomes also frequently undergo polysomy. It is all a question of how extra or missing genes interact with the rest of the genome.

Some organisms are better at dealing with multiple gene copies (or missing genes) than others. How these are arranged across chromosomes obviously plays a big role.

Athon

 

[I less than three logic]

Very interesting! You know, there's a bit of information I've had trouble finding online, but I've often wondered how a creature can get a whole chromosome added or removed from it's DNA. I understand this can cause severe mating difficulties due to the lack of a match for one of them in the mate. But of course, all it takes is one success and a beneficial environment for that change to flourish. I'm just wondering how it goes about.

It is referred to as aneuploidy, which is an abnormal number of chromosomes in the nucleus. The most common in humans is trisomy, an additional chromosome, and is usually associated with a variety of severe mental and physical disorders.

I have an older cousin with trisomy 21, an extra chromosome on the 21st pair. Trisomy 21 is more commonly known as Down syndrome. (Although, I know there is a strong correlation between trisomy 21 and the collection of disorders known as Down syndrome, I’m not sure it has been proven that trisomy 21 is the cause of the syndrome. Perhaps other posters could provide some more information on this.)

If I recall correctly he should be 27, which is fairly old for people with the syndrome I believe. The last I’ve heard about him he was doing fairly well, he had just been potty trained and was enjoying life on his own living in a complex that provides for aid for people with needs like his.

Anyway, here is a link for a little more information on this subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aneuploidy#Trisomy

 

[Dark Jaguar]

Perhaps the bigger question I should have said explicitly is how is the addition of a chromosome passed on to subsequent generations? In other words, what conditions need to happen to make that trait viable as far as the person with it being able to reproduce?

 

[articulett]

Perhaps the bigger question I should have said explicitly is how is the addition of a chromosome passed on to subsequent generations? In other words, what conditions need to happen to make that trait viable as far as the person with it being able to reproduce?

There are also duplications and translocations. Chimps have 48 chromosomes; where as humans have 46--and the difference involves an inversion and a translocation I believe (a big piece of one chromosome breaks off and sticks to another. There are also things called sattlelites. But the newest information (as described in that article) is that most organisms contain DNA from their evolutionary past--it is often in "junk dna"--(filler)--but sometimes these old genes get turned on via a mutation, a promoter gene, uniparental disomy, methylation, translocation, etc. Chimps have a very similar genome to humans, but many of the genes that are inactive in them, are expressed in us. A chromosome carrying a translocation will copy itself and divide with the translocation during mitosis and end up in half the offspring. There are also things called balanced translocations which complicate the matter further---but the bottom line is that such events are relatively common--most are deleterious--but it only takes one beneficial mutation to move evolution up one notch more so-to-speak--and this can give rise to millions.

Regarding trisomy 21--I think the average lifespan of those who survive childhood is around 40 or 45. Those with Down Syndrome do age fast and almost all will start getting Alzheimers in their 20's or 30's. Having an extra autosome is hard on a body. Most such cases are miscarried early on. You never see a triploidy in one of the bigger chromosomes.

 

[tsg]

Both, I think, depending on the individual. Behe and Dembski must be capable of understanding this stuff so they are definitely in the 'wilful ignorance' camp.

I prefer to call what they are doing as "willfully misleading". They know and are lying.