Indian Skeptics

[ottle]

OK. Here goes.

TAM was an incredible conference and it's really wonderful that they had more attendees than ever this year. We have more younger attendees, more women and it's all really inspiring.

I was, however, one of maybe 10 or 15 non-white attendees and that got me thinking. I decided that I am going to go ahead and start a site to help me do some research around skepticism and critical thinking, particularly around Indians, people of Indian origin and Indian issues. We have such a huge number of myths and mysticism in India, I'm surprised nobody else is doing it. Maybe someone is and I haven't found them yet. My initial basic research hasn't found much in the U.S. - a few people and organizations in India, who will be good resources, I'm sure.

So I created http://www.masala-skeptic.com. It's just a blog right now and I'm just going to use it as my starting point for what I learn as I start to build out the site.

I would love to get your thoughts and opinions on this.

I don't know where this is going but I just want to get the message out and see who and what is out there. If any of you want to link to me, feel free. The site will grow as I have time and learn more.

 

[Loon]

A good idea, ottle. If nothing else, it's a start.

And anything that can broaden the appeal of skepticism is a good, good thing

 

[ottle]

I should say, it's more than just Indian skepticism - like that one guy said at TAM, it's more about minorities in general. We're making great progress getting more young people, more women. But I think I was one of maybe 15 non-white people there.

 

[Chaos]

I should say, it's more than just Indian skepticism - like that one guy said at TAM, it's more about minorities in general. We're making great progress getting more young people, more women. But I think I was one of maybe 15 non-white people there.

Talk to Girl 6. She has been bugging the middle-aged and elderly white men on the panel discussions about just this topic since at least TAM2. And, I regret to say, they have ignored her for at least that long, and, as Randi did this time, somehow managed to turn this criticism into praise for themselves.

No, really, talk to Girl 6. I´m not sure she reads this forum any more or answers PMs here, but it should be worth it registering at www.skepticalcommunity.com (she is skeptica there) to get her input on this.

 

[ottle]

Talk to Girl 6. She has been bugging the middle-aged and elderly white men on the panel discussions about just this topic since at least TAM2. And, I regret to say, they have ignored her for at least that long, and, as Randi did this time, somehow managed to turn this criticism into praise for themselves.

No, really, talk to Girl 6. I´m not sure she reads this forum any more or answers PMs here, but it should be worth it registering at www.skepticalcommunity.com (she is skeptica there) to get her input on this.

Thanks - will do. I met her at the PJ party and had some great conversations with her.

I don't know that Randi managed to turn 'criticism into praise' - I am just not sure what he could necessarily do about it. I think it's up to the folks within the communities to speak up and do more to promote this organization and the work it does.

I know, from the perspective of the Indian community, it's a very closed world - Indians tend to keep to themselves, socially. That's a generalization and there are obviously exceptions but in general, I think it's part of the reason that this issue exists.

 

[Chaos]

Thanks - will do. I met her at the PJ party and had some great conversations with her.

I don't know that Randi managed to turn 'criticism into praise' - I am just not sure what he could necessarily do about it. I think it's up to the folks within the communities to speak up and do more to promote this organization and the work it does.

I know, from the perspective of the Indian community, it's a very closed world - Indians tend to keep to themselves, socially. That's a generalization and there are obviously exceptions but in general, I think it's part of the reason that this issue exists.

The way I remember it - and I tried to listen very closely, because the topic had been dismissed off-handedly so often before - when this guy asked about why there were so few minority people at TAM, about the third or fourth sentence of Randi´s reply was "We have never had this many women or non-white people at TAM - isn´t that great?", and after that is was applause and nobody remembered anymore that somebody had pointed out a problem.

The least he could have done is say, "yes, I know, that´s a problem, but I have no idea what to do about that; if anybody has suggestions, I´m listening".

 

[Geek Goddess]

I go to a professional conference every year, where there are normally about 2000 people, and have been going since 1988. Sometimes, I was one of 5-10 women. Now, I might see 40-50. To me and my experience, there were a LOT of women at TAM.

About 10-12 years ago, I was involved with a group called Texas Alliance for Minorities in Engineering (TAME). I don't know if it is still around, but we worked at the junior high and high school levels to get minority students to take math and science so they would be prepared to study engineering in college. I think it is a duty for us with an interesting in science in critical thinking, in skepticism, to mentor young people of all backgrounds.

The only Indians that I personally know fairly well, are actually Muslim, and the guy became an inman in the Dallas area a few years back. I lost track of him. I've read some histories of India and British accounts of life there - the culture is steeped in mysticism.

 

[JamesDillon]

I agree that Randi could have handled that question better. Does anyone have any ideas why TAM, and presumably the JREF, is such a largely-white organization? Do whites as a group tend to be more culturally or ethnically prone to skepticism and/or atheism than other groups?

Edit: to follow GG's point, there did seem to be a lot more women, and many younger people, at TAM this year than last year. Not much progress on the racial/ethnic compisition, though.

 

[Zep]

Ottle, I deal regularly with Indians and Pakistanis on homeopath forums. I have also visited India recently for professional reasons. What I do find remarkable among subcontinental communities is the prevalence of acceptance of all manner of supernatural beliefs as matter-of-fact. Not just the strong acceptance of the major religions and some of their arcane and archaic requirements, but also the unquestioning belief in homeopathy, ayervedic, astrology, anti-vaccinationism, evil spirits, etc, etc. So much so that many of the societal ills which beset the region can be sheeted home firmly to these beliefs.

For example, homeopathy. While we in the west can see clearly that it is an annoying case of scammers using a patient's own wishful thinking, in India and Pakistan, deference to homeopaths is actively holding up the fight against eradicable diseases. While many of the population defer to this plague of ignorants, no progress is made. On a particular Indian homeopathy forum I contribute to currently, the majority of illnesses begging for help are clearly due to poor nutrition and especially poor sanitation - infections, ailimentary illnesses, skin diseases, communicable diseases. The homeopaths' responses? Take these (sugar) pills or these (alcohol/water) drops, report back next week. No attempt to look at the root cause, and they actively preach against patients seeing real doctors.

I hesitate in the extreme to put this down to the general level of education, because there are many highly educated people in the region - I have worked with them, they are world-class. But in a region of 1.5 billion people, more than in China, the homeopath scammers and others of their ilk have a huge foothold with those unable to understand even basic maths let alone sanitation. Add the mystical appeal of homeopathy to a nation steeped in mysticism as reality, and it makes sobering thought what you are up against in trying to get Indians and Pakistanis to sway towards skepticism.

And I say this not as a put-down, Ottle. It is, currently, the way things are as I see them. Incidentally, I would have hoped Mr Randi would have been a bit more sympathetic to your viewpoint...

I second the call to work with Girl_6/Skeptica on this subject. She is heavily dedicated to it, and I hope fervently it pays off for her.

 

[Boo]

I see the reaon for skepticism being the province of primarily older white males due to socio-economic reasons. Traditionally they have been the people with the money and contacts to network as well as having the leisure time to devote to this arena. It has only been in the last generation or so that women and other nationalities have been able to reach those levels of financial and professional heights to become involved in the skeptical movement.

There is talk of organizing a TAM like event in Europe.

In discussing this issue with others it has also been pointed out that there is a language barrier that must be overcome as well as cultural barriers. Language is relatively when compared to the notion that skepticism is seen as all or nothing. It is unfortunate that the most vocal proponents of skepticism are the hard liners who think that one cannot hold to any 'belief' that might be considered counter to skepticism instaed of realizing that many people try to think critically in most areas but for cultural or other reasons will compartmentalize one area that they d not exam critically.

To bring more women and nationalties to the table we must acknowledge this and make them feel welcome. Once they are in the doors then we can start teaching and guiding them towards applying those critical thinking skills to all parts of life.

Perhaps instead of trying to convert we need to focus on education. Provide all people with information and acceptance, make them feel welcome, offer them a safe place to examine what they believe and why. If we can do this then we are truly the James Randi Educational Foundation.



Boo

 

[ottle]

I also think it has a lot to do with 'types' of religion. Hindus and Muslims are fairly closed communities - there isn't an evangelical aspect to it. So we don't get a lot of Hindus and Muslims trying to 'convert' atheists or trying to engage in discussions. I suspect that's a big part of it.

I'm wiped out tonight but will read through and probably have more to say tomorrow.

G'night all!

 

[Margaret K]

Indian skeptics

There is an Indian skeptic group in existence so I suggest you try to link up with them. Not sure whether they are called skeptics or rationalists.

We had a speaker from the group at one of the Australian Skeptics annual conferences a few years ago who was excellent. He performed some of the 'magic tricks' that the so-called Godmen use to con people. He was a passionate opponent of Sai Baba and I think had a clip showing the slow motion sleight of hand about the production of the piece of gold jewellery that he sometimes gives people.

There was also an excellent 30 minute TV show broadcast by the ABC, Australia's national broadcaster, possibly produced by the Indian skeptics and their work back somewhere in the mid 90s. I can't remember the name of it, but it also covered the thing about the fellows who thought they had the power to cure snake bite. Turns out that unlike Australia where it is a very good idea to assume a snake is venomous, many of India's snakes aren't, and bites from these aren't fatal. Of course, this doesn't apply to cobras. If you are able to source the video, I do need to warn you that the presenters use a dog and allow it to be bitten by a cobra. The fellow who thinks he has the power to cure snake bites does his stuff, and the dog dies.

Best of luck with your endeavours.

 

[Dave1001]

OK. Here goes.

TAM was an incredible conference and it's really wonderful that they had more attendees than ever this year. We have more younger attendees, more women and it's all really inspiring.

I was, however, one of maybe 10 or 15 non-white attendees and that got me thinking. I decided that I am going to go ahead and start a site to help me do some research around skepticism and critical thinking, particularly around Indians, people of Indian origin and Indian issues. We have such a huge number of myths and mysticism in India, I'm surprised nobody else is doing it. Maybe someone is and I haven't found them yet. My initial basic research hasn't found much in the U.S. - a few people and organizations in India, who will be good resources, I'm sure.

So I created http://www.masala-skeptic.com. It's just a blog right now and I'm just going to use it as my starting point for what I learn as I start to build out the site.

I would love to get your thoughts and opinions on this.

I don't know where this is going but I just want to get the message out and see who and what is out there. If any of you want to link to me, feel free. The site will grow as I have time and learn more.

Great idea, Ottle. You have my full support, and I hope of other forum members too.

 

[Dave1001]

I agree that Randi could have handled that question better. Does anyone have any ideas why TAM, and presumably the JREF, is such a largely-white organization? Do whites as a group tend to be more culturally or ethnically prone to skepticism and/or atheism than other groups?

Edit: to follow GG's point, there did seem to be a lot more women, and many younger people, at TAM this year than last year. Not much progress on the racial/ethnic compisition, though.

At least in the case of black and latino americans, it seems fairly obvious to me: christianity is a way to connect with the majority. Once one is a minority, I don't see much of a natural incentive to further marginalize by publicly embracing atheism. In contrast, white guys probably feel more majoritarian cover to be able to publicly explore unpopular ideas like atheism. That's my theory, anyways.

 

[Dave1001]

Also, for the arab/muslim world there seems to me to be an attack/baiting done by some skeptics (Steve Grenard, etc.) where the desire is greater for brown foreigners to serve as a foil, as a group to attack for their irrational religion, rather than as potential enlightenment allies to court and persuade. The interaction seems almost tailored to make arab and desi muslims defensive of their religion rather than receptive to skeptical ideas.

 

[rebecca]

Awesome to see you taking some initiative, Ottle! Please let me know how I can help -- you can email me at skepchick@skepchick.org if you need anything.

 

[walthrup48]

We have such a huge number of myths and mysticism in India, I'm surprised nobody else is doing it. Maybe someone is and I haven't found them yet.

Basava Premanand, India's Randi.

 

[athon]

I have some small experience with education in Australian Indigenous communities, and have looked into how their cultures make in difficult to teaching critical thinking. It's a field I'd love to explore further in the future.

I also offer any help I can give. It would be interesting to expand this to various indigenous cultures across the globe.

Athon

 

[athon]

I see the reaon for skepticism being the province of primarily older white males due to socio-economic reasons. Traditionally they have been the people with the money and contacts to network as well as having the leisure time to devote to this arena. It has only been in the last generation or so that women and other nationalities have been able to reach those levels of financial and professional heights to become involved in the skeptical movement.

To futher this, socio-economics is linked with cultural heritage and the role community plays on an individual's welfare. To reject culture and socially embraced beliefs (such as religious beliefs and superstition) is to remove one's self from the community. Ostracism in this respect only serves to make life more difficult for those in social groups such as these, especially when such beliefs are not replaced by other cultural values. It's a sensitive topic and one that needs addressing.

Perhaps instead of trying to convert we need to focus on education. Provide all people with information and acceptance, make them feel welcome, offer them a safe place to examine what they believe and why. If we can do this then we are truly the James Randi Educational Foundation.

*stands and applauds*

It is indeed high time the JREF paid close attention to the 'E' in its name.

Athon

 

[CFLarsen]

I was, however, one of maybe 10 or 15 non-white attendees and that got me thinking.

Odd. I met you (however briefly), and I didn't think of you as a "non-white". Whatever that means.

Talk to Girl 6. She has been bugging the middle-aged and elderly white men on the panel discussions about just this topic since at least TAM2. And, I regret to say, they have ignored her for at least that long, and, as Randi did this time, somehow managed to turn this criticism into praise for themselves.

Not fair and not true. E.g., we've had many women on the panels and as speakers at TAM.

I go to a professional conference every year, where there are normally about 2000 people, and have been going since 1988. Sometimes, I was one of 5-10 women. Now, I might see 40-50. To me and my experience, there were a LOT of women at TAM.

But never enough.

About 10-12 years ago, I was involved with a group called Texas Alliance for Minorities in Engineering (TAME).

Oy, that's one bad choice of name!

I see the reaon for skepticism being the province of primarily older white males due to socio-economic reasons. Traditionally they have been the people with the money and contacts to network as well as having the leisure time to devote to this arena. It has only been in the last generation or so that women and other nationalities have been able to reach those levels of financial and professional heights to become involved in the skeptical movement.

It is only in the last generation or so that there has been a skeptical movement at all.

There is talk of organizing a TAM like event in Europe.

There are skeptical conventions outside JREF, so it isn't as if we are totally deprived over here. But there could be more. But, then, I could be wrong...

In discussing this issue with others it has also been pointed out that there is a language barrier that must be overcome as well as cultural barriers. Language is relatively when compared to the notion that skepticism is seen as all or nothing. It is unfortunate that the most vocal proponents of skepticism are the hard liners who think that one cannot hold to any 'belief' that might be considered counter to skepticism instaed of realizing that many people try to think critically in most areas but for cultural or other reasons will compartmentalize one area that they d not exam critically.

At this time, we have to accept that English is the de facto language, if we want to communicate internationally. English has been the business language for a long time, it is certainly in science, and with the Internet, it rules all other languages. Even with the incoming flow of Chinese, I seriously doubt Chinese will replace English as the Internet language.

English it is.

To bring more women and nationalties to the table we must acknowledge this and make them feel welcome. Once they are in the doors then we can start teaching and guiding them towards applying those critical thinking skills to all parts of life.

I'd rather focus on bringing in nationalities than focus on gender or race. Let's create international skepticism, instead of compartmentalize endlessly. Which is focusing on what separates us, instead of focusing on what binds us together.

Perhaps instead of trying to convert we need to focus on education. Provide all people with information and acceptance, make them feel welcome, offer them a safe place to examine what they believe and why. If we can do this then we are truly the James Randi Educational Foundation.

Absolutely. That's why it is great to see so many different nationalities at TAM, and here on the forum, too. Wasn't it just great to be able to meet and speak to several Danes at TAM5?

It is indeed high time the JREF paid close attention to the 'E' in its name.

I don't think that JREF has ever not done that. After all, we've just been to the best TAM ever. If that wasn't educational, I don't know what is.